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i think philosophy is almost by

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definition the most important

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[Music]

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intellectual endeavor there is but and

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this is being a real snide i

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don't the thing is really unfortunate

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people that actually engage in it

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this is part two of the conversation

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with the great david wallpark part one

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is in the description and i recommend

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that you watch that first in order to

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gain an overview of the professor's work

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in this podcast we cover what the

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definition of an observer is and we also

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cover many audience questions including

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those from the inventive and prolific

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chris langan carl fristen and neil seth

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and kevin knuth among others we also

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cover a topic virtually never touched on

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in the public discussion of the

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foundations of mathematics and

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philosophy called algorithmic

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information theory david believes that

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the only unquestionable results in

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philosophy are those found in

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algorithmic information theory so we

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perform a cursory examination of it

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lastly david makes a distinction between

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the what consciousness and the how

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consciousness personally i'm generally a

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fan of disambiguation and think that

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many philosophical problems exist

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because of a befuddlement of our

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conflicted language which later

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generations disembroil and then they

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think back and wonder why previous

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generations were so confused in fact

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john verveiki also separates

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consciousness into adjectival

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consciousness and adverbial

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consciousness click on the timestamp in

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the description if you'd like to skip

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this intro my name is kirchey mungle i'm

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a torontonian filmmaker with a

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background in mathematical physics

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dedicated to the explication of the

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variegated terrain of theories of

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everything from a theoretical physics

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perspective but as well as analyzing

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consciousness and seeing its potential

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connection to fundamental reality

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whatever that is essentially this

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channel is dedicated to exploring the

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underived nature of reality the

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constitutional laws that govern it

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provided those laws exist at all and are

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even noble to us if you enjoy witnessing

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and engaging with others on the topics

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of psychology consciousness physics etc

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the channel's themes then do consider

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going to the discord and the subreddit

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which are linked in the description

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there's also a link to the patreon that

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is patreon.com

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kirchheim uncle if you'd like to support

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this podcast as the patrons and the

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sponsors are the only reasons that i'm

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able to have podcasts of this quality

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and this depth given that i can do this

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now full time thanks to both the patrons

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and the sponsors support speaking of

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sponsors there are two the first sponsor

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is brilliant during the winter break i

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decided to brush up on some of the

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fundamentals of physics particularly

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with regard to information theory as i'd

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like to interview chiara marletto on

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constructor theory which is heavily

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based in information theory now

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information theory is predicated on

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entropy at least there's a fundamental

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formula for entropy so i ended up taking

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the brilliant course i challenged myself

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to do one lesson per day and i took the

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course's random variable distributions

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and knowledge slash uncertainty what i

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loved is that despite knowing the

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formula for entropy which is essentially

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hammered into you as an undergraduate it

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seems like it comes down from the sky

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arbitrarily and with brilliance for the

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first time i was able to see how the

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formula for entropy which you're seeing

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right now is actually extremely natural

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and it'd be strange to define it in any

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other manner there are plenty of courses

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and you can even learn group theory

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which is what's being referenced when

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you hear that the standard model is

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predicated on u1 cross su-2 cross su-3

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those are league groups continuous lead

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groups visit brilliant.org

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toe t-o-e to get 20 off an annual

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subscription and i recommend that you

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don't stop before four lessons i think

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you'll be greatly surprised at the ease

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at which you can now comprehend subjects

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you previously had a difficult time

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grocking the second sponsor is algo now

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algo is an end-to-end supply chain

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hussein who's been a huge supporter of

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this podcast since near its inception in

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fact amjad has his own podcast on ai and

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consciousness and business growth and if

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you'd like to support the toe podcast

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then visit the link in the description

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to see amjad's podcast because

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subscribing to him or at least visiting

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supports the toe podcast indirectly

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thank you and enjoy professor why don't

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you explain what laplace's demon is and

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then why there's an impossibility result

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about the existence of laplace's demon

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okay

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um not surprisingly um laplace's demon

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is named for a simone laplace

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um worked towards the end of the 18th

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century mostly the early 19th century

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he was among other things the first

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person to really use bayesian statistics

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he applied it to planetary motion

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to try to infer what the actual um true

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or

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parameters of the emotion the planets is

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um a whole bunch of um uh

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mathematics um that we use that um

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undergraduates will be using in um uh

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the physics and math majors and so on

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has his name involved so he's a very

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very bright guy

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now he was um working at a time when

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people thought that everything was

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ultimately newtonian classical physics

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well before relativity well before

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quantum mechanics

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and

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he

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realized that in that paradigm

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if you give a um a brilliant scientist

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or a demon

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sufficient information about these state

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of the world at present

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they can predict exactly what the state

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of the world would be in all of its

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details arbitrarily far into the future

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um and this was true before

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not only many notions of quantum

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mechanics or relativity but also before

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people knew about chaos or any of the

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other kinds of phenomena that have been

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uncovered in the 20th century that might

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make one think that apostles demon can't

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quite hold

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um

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so that's his demon one

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the work that i've been involved with on

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inference devices

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one of the it's almost kind of a trivial

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but one of the kinds of things that it

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uncovers

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is that regardless of what actually the

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laws of physics are um regardless of

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whether it's got anything to do with

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what's currently called the standard

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model whether it's quantum physics

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um whether it's classical physics it

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could have been newtonian it could have

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been newtonian where there was no chaos

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it could have been exactly the paradigm

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that um laplace was thinking in

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but even given that kind of a

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hypothesis

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his demon could not exist there's a

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logical fallacy

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embedded in the very notion

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and that is actually intuitively it's

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quite simple you can set it up in terms

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of um

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what sometimes called a cretin's liars

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paradox some people say

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pepa amenities

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was the person who first wrote it down

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others say it actually um has earlier

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roots still

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but um basically you can set it up in

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such a way that

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they're um even in a classical universe

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where it's a finite one even let's make

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it be finite with no chaos

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you can very easily um construct

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possible questions concerning the future

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state of that universe

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that laplace could not possibly get

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correct

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by definition whatever his prediction is

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it would be exactly wrong

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precisely because applause is part of

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the universe that is the key

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um so it's not too hard to convince

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yourself of why that might be true

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and um

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we can work through the details if you

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want

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i don't know how you might actually get

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this out to your audience

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but um there's

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um some work

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i can show a slide later you can just

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send me those

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yeah maybe we can do that later um

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yeah let's get to all that later um

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so in any case the um

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so that is part of a general inference

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devices really grew out of

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the desire to quantify and build a

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formal structure

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that goes beyond this impossibility

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argument of the possible demon which by

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the way i have not actually proven it to

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you but certainly not in the generality

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that i stated it about how it's

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impossible where it doesn't depend on

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the laws of physics

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so what inference devices is about that

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whole formalism

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at root what it says when it first

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notices is that um

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attribute of reality

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that most card carrying physicists

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certainly cosmologists

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would ascribe to

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independent of the detailed physical

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theory which is that the um human beings

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themselves are physical systems

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so this is so it's really a perspective

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that turns conventional philosophy on

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its head

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in that

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rather than try to understand what

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various

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um what our scientific theories might be

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um in terms of well are we just

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discovering the external reality or like

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an instrumentalist would say we're

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discovering useful variables for making

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predictions about the external reality

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and so on

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instead to practicing physicists as i

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said especially those who deal with for

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example cosmology

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rather

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physical reality is the starting point

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and then you derive human beings

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as an approximation to some of the

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equations and physics of that of the

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actual true world

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so to whatever degree

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those

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epi phenomena of human beings

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can themselves make accurate theories

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about this physical system they're

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embedded with that's a secondary

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question so rather than starting from

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the perspective of humans

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saying what um

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what is it that we're talking about when

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we talk about science how does it relate

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to the external reality

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00:10:28,710 --> 00:10:26,079
the physicists make that be a very very

287
00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:28,720
secondary minor question saying let's

288
00:10:32,949 --> 00:10:31,040
start with the physical reality

289
00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:32,959
then human beings are just one of the

290
00:10:37,190 --> 00:10:34,800
phenomena in that physical reality that

291
00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:37,200
we can describe completely and if we

292
00:10:39,990 --> 00:10:39,040
wanted to we could drill down into even

293
00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:40,000
more

294
00:10:44,150 --> 00:10:41,600
my minute

295
00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:44,160
semi-trivial questions like well some of

296
00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:45,680
those human beings they call themselves

297
00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:47,600
philosophers of science

298
00:10:51,269 --> 00:10:49,600
and they're looking at these various

299
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:51,279
things that other human beings called

300
00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:53,200
scientists that come up with

301
00:10:56,630 --> 00:10:54,720
and they're trying to worry about how

302
00:10:59,030 --> 00:10:56,640
they might relate to this underlying

303
00:11:00,710 --> 00:10:59,040
physical reality and yet that's all well

304
00:11:03,430 --> 00:11:00,720
and good but it's

305
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:03,440
very very secondary to the presumption

306
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:04,240
that

307
00:11:08,150 --> 00:11:06,000
physical reality is just the set of

308
00:11:09,350 --> 00:11:08,160
mathematical questions and we humans and

309
00:11:11,590 --> 00:11:09,360
all of our

310
00:11:13,269 --> 00:11:11,600
conundrums are just something that comes

311
00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:13,279
out from it

312
00:11:20,230 --> 00:11:17,680
so if you adopt that perspective

313
00:11:23,829 --> 00:11:20,240
then you can go very very

314
00:11:25,509 --> 00:11:23,839
broad scale on some of the issues that

315
00:11:27,030 --> 00:11:25,519
are addressed in philosophy of science

316
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:27,040
and associate branches of philosophy

317
00:11:31,269 --> 00:11:29,279
called epistemology

318
00:11:33,110 --> 00:11:31,279
you can say

319
00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:33,120
given any agent doesn't have to be a

320
00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:35,360
human being that is

321
00:11:41,910 --> 00:11:38,880
situated in that physical reality

322
00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:41,920
so the states of its brain are simply a

323
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:44,800
subset of they only

324
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:47,920
how to phrase it so the physical reality

325
00:11:54,550 --> 00:11:51,600
to allow it to have any kinds of laws

326
00:11:56,870 --> 00:11:54,560
we will reduce it to a set which is the

327
00:11:59,829 --> 00:11:56,880
set of all possible

328
00:12:01,670 --> 00:11:59,839
histories of reality through all time

329
00:12:02,949 --> 00:12:01,680
what is called a world line in

330
00:12:03,750 --> 00:12:02,959
relativity

331
00:12:04,949 --> 00:12:03,760
so

332
00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:04,959
um

333
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:07,279
there's going to be one world line

334
00:12:12,389 --> 00:12:10,480
in which you kurt are wearing a um a red

335
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:12,399
off-reddish jacket

336
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:13,920
there's another world line that would be

337
00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:15,200
the same laws of physics but it's

338
00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:17,200
another element in the set in which

339
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:18,800
you're right now wearing instead of more

340
00:12:22,949 --> 00:12:20,560
brownish jacket

341
00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:22,959
these are both world lines

342
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:25,120
that are elements of the set of all

343
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:28,399
possible world line histories

344
00:12:33,269 --> 00:12:30,399
so if i then look at the particular

345
00:12:35,110 --> 00:12:33,279
world line in which kurt is sitting in

346
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:35,120
that so if i look at the particular

347
00:12:39,509 --> 00:12:37,360
event that curt is right now

348
00:12:41,829 --> 00:12:39,519
sitting in that chair

349
00:12:43,829 --> 00:12:41,839
that actually selects out a subset of

350
00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:43,839
all possible world lines

351
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:45,200
there will be some in which you are

352
00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:46,320
sitting in that chair and someone which

353
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:47,360
you are not

354
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:50,079
so that event is really just a subset of

355
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:52,320
the set of all possible world lines of

356
00:12:55,990 --> 00:12:54,320
the universe

357
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:56,000
in addition

358
00:13:00,790 --> 00:12:58,720
the um event where you pose to yourself

359
00:13:03,350 --> 00:13:00,800
a question like

360
00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:03,360
what happens when um two bodies are

361
00:13:07,509 --> 00:13:05,920
gravitationally attracted to one another

362
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:07,519
and have the following masses of

363
00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:09,360
momentum come within a certain distance

364
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:11,120
of one another

365
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:13,279
the set of realities in which you pose

366
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:14,880
that question

367
00:13:20,629 --> 00:13:18,320
is a subset of all possible world lines

368
00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:20,639
the set of realities in which you give a

369
00:13:23,590 --> 00:13:22,480
possible particular answer to that

370
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:23,600
question

371
00:13:29,269 --> 00:13:26,320
is another subset

372
00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:29,279
and also we can presume that the set of

373
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:31,440
physical realities in which your answer

374
00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:32,880
is correct

375
00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,120
and which your answer is wrong

376
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:37,920
are yet other subsets

377
00:13:42,550 --> 00:13:40,800
so what this sets up so to speak

378
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:42,560
um is that there's a relationship

379
00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:45,760
between these sets where one subset of

380
00:13:48,550 --> 00:13:47,360
all the realities where you pose a

381
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:48,560
question

382
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:50,160
another one is where you give a

383
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:52,800
particular answer both of which are just

384
00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:55,199
physical states of your brain and then

385
00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:57,040
there's a third one which has to do with

386
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:58,240
the actual

387
00:14:02,150 --> 00:14:00,000
physical system you are asking this

388
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:02,160
question about

389
00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:05,360
the answer to your question may in some

390
00:14:09,430 --> 00:14:07,199
of those describe that physical system

391
00:14:11,110 --> 00:14:09,440
accurately and they may do it

392
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:11,120
inaccurately they might be wrong in

393
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:12,880
other words

394
00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:15,120
it turns out that just by making that

395
00:14:20,069 --> 00:14:17,680
decomposition that everything about you

396
00:14:23,189 --> 00:14:20,079
are making a prediction

397
00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:23,199
is involves questions answers and truths

398
00:14:27,269 --> 00:14:25,040
we can also say everything about your

399
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:27,279
making an observation you are right now

400
00:14:29,670 --> 00:14:28,480
observing

401
00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:29,680
something

402
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,360
which you can be then posing a question

403
00:14:35,430 --> 00:14:33,600
to yourself what am i observing

404
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:35,440
you can then have an answer to that what

405
00:14:39,509 --> 00:14:37,760
am i um what do i think in response to

406
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:39,519
that question

407
00:14:43,269 --> 00:14:41,279
and then it can be the actual truth and

408
00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:43,279
these again are just three subsets of

409
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:45,519
all possible world lines

410
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,639
whether your observation is correct or

411
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:50,320
is distorted

412
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:52,240
will be determined by the overlap

413
00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:54,480
between these world lines

414
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:56,720
so everything you observe

415
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:58,800
everything you predict

416
00:15:02,310 --> 00:15:00,480
everything that you remember which is

417
00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:02,320
another example of this

418
00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:04,079
everything you could control you could

419
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:06,800
reach out your hand and try to be having

420
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:08,079
the question

421
00:15:12,550 --> 00:15:10,800
where is this pencil going to be

422
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:12,560
one minute from now and you are making

423
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:14,480
it so

424
00:15:18,230 --> 00:15:16,160
anything in this most broad sense

425
00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:18,240
imaginable of what um in philosophy is

426
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:20,320
called epistemology of you of your

427
00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:21,519
knowledge

428
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:24,320
about this world about whether your

429
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:26,079
knowledge could be correct or could be

430
00:15:30,629 --> 00:15:27,760
or wrong

431
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:30,639
we can reduce all analysis of it

432
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:32,959
to saying how is it that these three

433
00:15:38,069 --> 00:15:35,120
subsets

434
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:38,079
relate to one another

435
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:40,480
based upon that so notice that this

436
00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:44,000
level of formalism we're far beyond any

437
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:46,079
specifics like is it a universe where

438
00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:47,680
quantum mechanics holds or classical

439
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:49,920
mechanics hold the universe could be

440
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:52,800
finite the universe could not have chaos

441
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:54,639
on it it doesn't matter

442
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:57,040
nor does it matter how you are

443
00:16:00,470 --> 00:15:58,320
making your

444
00:16:02,550 --> 00:16:00,480
questions and answers whether it be by

445
00:16:05,189 --> 00:16:02,560
prediction predicting whether the sun

446
00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:05,199
will come up tomorrow or um what's going

447
00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:06,240
to be happening with those two

448
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:08,720
gravitation gravitating bodies i

449
00:16:14,949 --> 00:16:11,040
alluded to before or if it comes via

450
00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:14,959
observation or even memory

451
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:18,160
or directly control any form of these is

452
00:16:23,829 --> 00:16:21,279
being covered by the structure of three

453
00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:23,839
overlapping subsets

454
00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:26,560
it turns out that once you do that that

455
00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:29,120
all that is needed is that

456
00:16:33,670 --> 00:16:31,839
formalism of three overlapping subsets

457
00:16:36,069 --> 00:16:33,680
that you can get a whole bunch of

458
00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:36,079
impossibility results

459
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:38,639
and one of them to return to the point

460
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:39,839
that you were raising before has to do

461
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:41,360
with the apostles demon

462
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:43,759
you can say that laplace

463
00:16:48,629 --> 00:16:46,880
is somebody asking a question

464
00:16:53,910 --> 00:16:48,639
we can say that what that question

465
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:53,920
involves is his future answer itself

466
00:16:59,430 --> 00:16:57,279
then there can be the answer he gives

467
00:17:02,069 --> 00:16:59,440
and there can be reality and if

468
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:02,079
basically if laplace's questions of the

469
00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:04,799
form will i not be thinking that the

470
00:17:09,029 --> 00:17:06,400
answer is yes

471
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:09,039
one second from now

472
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:11,280
whatever answer he gives now you can set

473
00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:14,079
up in such a way that his answer to his

474
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:15,360
question will actually be the opposite

475
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:17,280
of the truth

476
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:19,120
and it doesn't matter what kind of a

477
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:21,679
system he uses to make that future

478
00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:23,919
prediction it doesn't matter if the

479
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:26,000
paradigm in which he was working of

480
00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:28,880
classical non-chaotic finite physics was

481
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:30,240
correct

482
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:31,280
his

483
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:36,480
sense going to be wrong he has a demon

484
00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:38,559
will be wrong and there will still be

485
00:17:42,070 --> 00:17:40,480
instances of such

486
00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:42,080
erroneousness

487
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:44,720
even if he builds a

488
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:46,080
demon that goes off and makes the

489
00:17:50,070 --> 00:17:47,600
prediction on his behalf so if it's not

490
00:17:52,390 --> 00:17:50,080
laplace's demon it's not the plus is the

491
00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:52,400
demon he makes it even the same kind of

492
00:17:55,590 --> 00:17:53,760
thing goes through

493
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:55,600
so that's the way that we can actually

494
00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:58,080
formalize the very simple notion of

495
00:18:02,310 --> 00:17:59,200
laplace

496
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:02,320
this says demon is a flawed concept in

497
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:04,000
its very

498
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:05,840
presumption it's very structured

499
00:18:10,549 --> 00:18:08,640
independent of the rules of reality

500
00:18:12,830 --> 00:18:10,559
in such a way that actually allows us to

501
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:12,840
then derive things like the monotheism

502
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:16,640
theorem and the deism theorem and these

503
00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:20,320
other things about how many omnipotent

504
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:22,880
entities might a physical reality have

505
00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:24,960
independent of the laws of physics it

506
00:18:28,549 --> 00:18:26,720
sounds like what you said is that there

507
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:28,559
exists a question such that he will

508
00:18:32,789 --> 00:18:31,120
necessarily be incorrect so when i was

509
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:32,799
first reading about this i thought that

510
00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:34,320
it was going to go along the lines of

511
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,320
there exists configurations of physical

512
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:38,799
space such that he won't necessarily be

513
00:18:42,310 --> 00:18:40,720
correct but you're saying no there's a

514
00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:42,320
question such that he will necessarily

515
00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:45,280
be wrong no matter what no matter what

516
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:47,360
question answer pair

517
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:50,559
he comes up with it will be wrong if it

518
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:52,559
is supposed to be related to physical

519
00:18:57,590 --> 00:18:54,880
reality remember there are three things

520
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:57,600
there's your question your answer and

521
00:19:02,549 --> 00:19:00,240
then whatever the truth of the matter is

522
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:02,559
and so there are ways of setting up that

523
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:05,520
though that triple i say i see so

524
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:07,440
we can be guaranteed

525
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,760
that um if that question answer in

526
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:11,520
reality is supposed to be something that

527
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:15,360
concerns the future state of his brain

528
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:17,679
then um no matter what the details are

529
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:18,799
we can always

530
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:21,840
set up a question in such a way that the

531
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:22,960
answer

532
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:24,960
will not actually be the same thing as

533
00:19:29,510 --> 00:19:27,440
reality says but will be the opposite

534
00:19:32,470 --> 00:19:29,520
question when you stated it it reminded

535
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:32,480
me of the liar's paradox or gerda

536
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:34,640
have you found any impossibility results

537
00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:37,360
that are on more trivial questions when

538
00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:39,679
i say trivial i mean recall back in the

539
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:42,160
early 1900s when girdle came up with

540
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:44,240
this some mathematicians said sure in

541
00:19:47,350 --> 00:19:45,280
some

542
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:47,360
special cases there exist statements

543
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:49,280
that you can't prove but it's not like

544
00:19:52,630 --> 00:19:51,200
those are useful statements or

545
00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:52,640
statements that we talk about they're

546
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:55,120
incredibly contrived statements that was

547
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,400
a critique back at the time it's no

548
00:20:00,630 --> 00:19:58,320
longer critique but i'm wondering so is

549
00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:00,640
your impossibility result does it cover

550
00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:02,799
those non-trivial statements sorry those

551
00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:03,600
two

552
00:20:06,789 --> 00:20:05,520
this particular one about the process

553
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:06,799
demon

554
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:08,880
i would say is one of the more of the

555
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:11,280
trivial ones here's a more interesting

556
00:20:13,230 --> 00:20:12,640
one

557
00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:13,240
um

558
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:14,640
[Music]

559
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:16,799
and i'm going to state it in very loaded

560
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:18,320
language what we were discussing in the

561
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:20,320
previous podcast about you should not

562
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:22,000
use terms

563
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:23,679
afterwards you and i had this um back

564
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:25,520
and forth where it's called the uh

565
00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:28,559
persuasion um definition that i guess

566
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:30,720
where you define something some way in a

567
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:33,520
particular way so you know that you can

568
00:20:36,470 --> 00:20:35,200
you define out of it everything that

569
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:36,480
makes it interesting the first place but

570
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:38,400
be that resume this is actually not

571
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:41,200
completely an exercise of that but

572
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:45,039
so let's define an inference device

573
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:47,360
as a question answer pair so you are an

574
00:20:50,789 --> 00:20:49,280
inference device a computer can be an

575
00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:50,799
inference device

576
00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:52,720
um my dog

577
00:20:57,110 --> 00:20:55,200
whose name is choco and he's the most um

578
00:20:58,710 --> 00:20:57,120
amazing dog in the universe

579
00:21:00,390 --> 00:20:58,720
i'm just to make sure that people are

580
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:00,400
aware of that is that a true fact is

581
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:02,480
that true you have a dog named taco yeah

582
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:04,080
i named him choco he looks somewhat like

583
00:21:06,310 --> 00:21:05,520
the canyon

584
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:06,320
um

585
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:08,400
he's a good a mutt somewhere off the

586
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:10,559
streets of l.a

587
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:11,919
he's got a bunch of long-haired

588
00:21:15,190 --> 00:21:13,600
chihuahua in him and other things and he

589
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:15,200
is

590
00:21:21,029 --> 00:21:18,480
sterilized

591
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:21,039
because he is so gentle he's so good

592
00:21:26,230 --> 00:21:23,840
with people and he is so smart

593
00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:26,240
i never trained him to do anything um

594
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:28,559
but he just can tell by my tone of voice

595
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:30,080
he took after the gentle and smart

596
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:31,600
nature of his owner

597
00:21:35,669 --> 00:21:33,679
oh don't i wish i could say that and

598
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:35,679
rather everything that i treat my

599
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:37,600
deepest wisdom about life all of it i

600
00:21:41,909 --> 00:21:40,080
learned by watching him say no don't be

601
00:21:44,230 --> 00:21:41,919
more like him but then you'll be able to

602
00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:44,240
get through this as well um but in any

603
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:47,440
case these are all inference devices

604
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:49,919
so you can say that well some inference

605
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:51,760
devices let's

606
00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:53,760
um and different inference devices are

607
00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:55,520
going to be able to make correct

608
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:58,240
inferences about different things

609
00:22:01,350 --> 00:21:59,919
um we have this problem of them trying

610
00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:01,360
to make these inferences about

611
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:03,679
themselves um my

612
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:05,760
flyers paradox um apply to

613
00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:08,400
themselves but that but let's we can

614
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:10,240
assume that they can make um good

615
00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:14,080
inferences about almost everything else

616
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:16,240
but and and notice that the notion of an

617
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:17,919
inference device it's not just being

618
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:19,600
able to make predictions and also how to

619
00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:22,080
even into control

620
00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:26,320
so for example um a really strong person

621
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:29,520
who's able to move things physically

622
00:22:33,190 --> 00:22:31,200
part of what they can do and

623
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,200
successfully them as an inference device

624
00:22:37,590 --> 00:22:35,520
is actually move those objects

625
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,600
that way atlas

626
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:39,200
the greek odd would have been they or

627
00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:41,280
titan was he i'll forget what was this

628
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:42,559
yeah was the one with the world on his

629
00:22:46,070 --> 00:22:44,640
shoulders yeah yeah i just can't

630
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:46,080
remember he don't think he was a god i

631
00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:47,360
think he may have been a titan but i

632
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:48,640
don't remember

633
00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:50,159
um the titans were the predecessors of

634
00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:52,960
the gods in any case um he would would

635
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:54,240
have been an inference device a very

636
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:55,600
strong one

637
00:23:01,750 --> 00:22:59,440
so um one can then so basically

638
00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:01,760
you can conjecture

639
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:05,200
that there the universe might have a

640
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:08,799
god in the sense of an inference device

641
00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:11,039
that can control

642
00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:13,919
and accurately predict everything except

643
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:16,240
for in the case of laplace's demon

644
00:23:20,230 --> 00:23:18,240
that it can go after everything else and

645
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:20,240
do it correctly

646
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:23,120
so as long as you're not asking god this

647
00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:25,120
puget of god or goddess whatever it

648
00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:26,480
would be deity

649
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:28,240
deity dude we'll call it deity doo dee

650
00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:30,640
dee so long as you're not asking so long

651
00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:32,799
as dd is not asking itself questions

652
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:34,320
along the lines of what will i not be

653
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:36,640
asking a second from now

654
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:38,480
so long as dee dee is asking things like

655
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:42,559
oh well is um adam going to eat this

656
00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:44,960
apple that was just prefer proffer to

657
00:23:49,909 --> 00:23:46,720
him by eve

658
00:23:51,029 --> 00:23:49,919
so and so long as dede is doing things

659
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:51,039
like

660
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:53,279
reaching down his hand

661
00:23:58,470 --> 00:23:56,720
and writing on walls parting red seas

662
00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:58,480
doing things that are more interesting

663
00:24:03,190 --> 00:24:01,679
from the non-judeo-christian religions

664
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:03,200
they in some ways had much more

665
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:04,880
interesting deities than

666
00:24:09,190 --> 00:24:07,279
just the standard yahweh from

667
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:09,200
judeo-christian islamic religion but in

668
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:14,390
we can suppose that there is a universe

669
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:17,440
that does have such a dd in it

670
00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:18,400
um

671
00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:20,159
and so with where it would be actually

672
00:24:25,269 --> 00:24:22,960
correct in everything that it says about

673
00:24:27,029 --> 00:24:25,279
everything in its own universe

674
00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:27,039
except that doesn't have this weird kind

675
00:24:31,430 --> 00:24:28,880
of structure related to itself

676
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:31,440
that it's correct

677
00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:33,360
now let's consider the question though

678
00:24:39,669 --> 00:24:36,799
could we have two dd's

679
00:24:41,669 --> 00:24:39,679
and it turns out that we need to um in

680
00:24:43,669 --> 00:24:41,679
addition to these two deities as an

681
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:43,679
aside david i want to make sure these

682
00:24:48,149 --> 00:24:45,520
deities are they embedded in the

683
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:48,159
physical universe yes that's the key

684
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:49,919
that's the key but this physical

685
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:51,840
universe itself

686
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:53,679
you can define that however you want and

687
00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:55,840
whatever the deity is so long as it

688
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:57,840
itself

689
00:25:02,310 --> 00:25:00,480
it does things at various times and

690
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:02,320
we're not even saying requiring it to be

691
00:25:07,669 --> 00:25:04,799
lawful in any sense just that we can

692
00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:07,679
write down a set of world lines

693
00:25:13,029 --> 00:25:10,480
and those word lines are by definition

694
00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:13,039
they are the record of what the deity

695
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:15,200
its state is across

696
00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:17,200
all space and time is in one of these

697
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:18,400
world lines

698
00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:20,640
so this might very well extend to

699
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:22,480
supernatural

700
00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:24,640
variables that are not embedded in the

701
00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:27,360
laws of physics it doesn't even matter

702
00:25:31,190 --> 00:25:28,720
there's no presumption here that the

703
00:25:32,789 --> 00:25:31,200
deity is in any sense lawful

704
00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:32,799
bound by laws

705
00:25:37,110 --> 00:25:35,120
it's simply that it can that it states

706
00:25:39,750 --> 00:25:37,120
um we can be recorded

707
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:39,760
and in a certain sense if not then

708
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:41,679
i mean that almost means if by

709
00:25:45,909 --> 00:25:43,840
definition non-consequential

710
00:25:47,590 --> 00:25:45,919
you know wittgenstein's platitude about

711
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:47,600
that which you cannot talk shut the hell

712
00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:48,640
up

713
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:50,000
certainly would come to play there

714
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:51,840
because we're in any case

715
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:52,799
um

716
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:55,039
but so now let's consider the

717
00:25:59,830 --> 00:25:57,760
um possibility that there are two

718
00:26:02,789 --> 00:25:59,840
separate deities

719
00:26:05,909 --> 00:26:02,799
and now in addition to um

720
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:05,919
abusing the term deity i'm going to now

721
00:26:10,149 --> 00:26:08,320
abuse another term

722
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:10,159
i mean even worse which is the one with

723
00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:11,520
the ones we were talking about yesterday

724
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:13,840
which is free will

725
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:15,360
and so this is what i'm going to say i'm

726
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:16,960
going to say kurt you're an inference

727
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:19,760
device i'm an inference device

728
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:22,480
we both have free will if the following

729
00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:25,120
property holds

730
00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:29,279
whatever state david might be in

731
00:26:34,070 --> 00:26:32,080
it's possible for kurt to it's not

732
00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:34,080
somehow there is a

733
00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:36,880
element of the states of the set

734
00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:39,760
of all possible world lines in which

735
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:41,840
david is in that state

736
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:44,480
and kurt is in state a

737
00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:46,480
there's also another one in which david

738
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:49,520
is in that state and kurt is in state b

739
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:50,960
there's another one in which david is in

740
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:53,600
that state and kurt is state c

741
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:55,200
so basically

742
00:26:59,510 --> 00:26:57,360
the definition of free will is that the

743
00:27:01,750 --> 00:26:59,520
state that david is in

744
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:01,760
does not rule out

745
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:03,919
the possibility of kurtz being in

746
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:06,400
various states in that sense

747
00:27:09,909 --> 00:27:08,400
it's not a matter of i'm controlling you

748
00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:09,919
it's not even having anything to do with

749
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:11,600
physical correlation

750
00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:14,799
it's simply saying that i cannot um be

751
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:17,440
in a state like for example where i

752
00:27:23,909 --> 00:27:20,880
have in my head the edict curt

753
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,919
is not wearing a jacket

754
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:25,760
you could that either could be true or

755
00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:28,080
it could be false in that sense you are

756
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:30,000
free

757
00:27:39,669 --> 00:27:38,080
not sense not definition

758
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:39,679
and i it's very very much

759
00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:41,039
tongue-in-cheek for me to call that free

760
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:43,120
will but if we have free will in that

761
00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:44,159
sense

762
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:47,520
at least one moment

763
00:27:51,269 --> 00:27:49,760
then it is impossible to have two

764
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:51,279
deities

765
00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:56,320
in the sense that they can both

766
00:28:00,389 --> 00:27:58,080
have perfectly accurate inferences by

767
00:28:03,029 --> 00:28:00,399
everything other themselves if they both

768
00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:03,039
have free will at least once that's

769
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:04,720
incredibly interesting does an

770
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:06,640
impossibility result against more than

771
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:08,480
one god yes

772
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:09,440
yep that's why it's called the

773
00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:11,039
monotheism theorem

774
00:28:15,430 --> 00:28:13,039
it might be that we are in a universe in

775
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:15,440
which you could have one god who knows

776
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:17,440
i'm not going to go there i mean my

777
00:28:21,029 --> 00:28:18,960
personal

778
00:28:23,590 --> 00:28:21,039
um feeling uh

779
00:28:25,269 --> 00:28:23,600
conclusions on it are that in our

780
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:25,279
particular universe no

781
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:27,120
um but there could but there is no

782
00:28:32,149 --> 00:28:30,720
reason why i think the the concept

783
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:32,159
itself is not inherently

784
00:28:36,549 --> 00:28:34,720
self-contradictory like apostles demon

785
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:36,559
there could be universes i would say

786
00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:37,919
there's no sense in which we can

787
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:39,279
actually

788
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:42,840
rule them out in fact in which there are

789
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:46,320
deities um but there cannot be any of

790
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:47,200
them

791
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:50,000
that support two deities

792
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:51,600
so we might be in one of those ones in

793
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:53,520
which there is a deity who knows but we

794
00:28:56,789 --> 00:28:55,440
can't be one which is more than one and

795
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:56,799
when you say there can't be two

796
00:29:00,789 --> 00:28:58,399
omniscient to deities

797
00:29:02,149 --> 00:29:00,799
there can't be two that have free will

798
00:29:04,789 --> 00:29:02,159
ah

799
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:04,799
so you could have one where there's zeus

800
00:29:07,269 --> 00:29:06,320
and hera

801
00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:07,279
but

802
00:29:10,789 --> 00:29:09,679
um zeus can always be in a particular

803
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:10,799
state

804
00:29:15,909 --> 00:29:14,159
that restricts hera for being in in some

805
00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:15,919
of her particular states

806
00:29:20,389 --> 00:29:17,840
interesting in that sense she does not

807
00:29:23,669 --> 00:29:20,399
have free will of him at one particular

808
00:29:25,909 --> 00:29:23,679
time one particular state of zeus

809
00:29:27,029 --> 00:29:25,919
it's just not going to be any possible

810
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:27,039
um

811
00:29:35,269 --> 00:29:33,200
in our universe in which hera

812
00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:35,279
is in um one of her particular states

813
00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:37,440
there's some limitation my being one

814
00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:39,679
particular state at one particular time

815
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:42,000
it could causes a restriction on the

816
00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:43,840
possible states that you could be in at

817
00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:46,000
that time and if that's true that we

818
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:47,679
have no free will have you heard of

819
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:49,600
norton's dome

820
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:53,120
i think i

821
00:29:56,549 --> 00:29:54,880
did a while ago drinking a bell but i

822
00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:56,559
can't bring it up sure it's a thought

823
00:30:01,350 --> 00:29:59,279
experiment about newtonian mechanics and

824
00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:01,360
it's to show that newtonian mechanics

825
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,320
isn't deterministic even though it's

826
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:06,960
often said it is and the reason is there

827
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:09,440
are certain configurations you can set

828
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:11,360
up such that there is not a unique

829
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:13,440
answer to the differential equations you

830
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:15,200
know ordinarily in physics just for

831
00:30:19,110 --> 00:30:17,200
people to know one of the reasons why

832
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:19,120
mathematicians quibble with physicists

833
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:20,720
is that this is hand wave and gloss over

834
00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:22,640
many details and so one of them is

835
00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:24,080
whenever we have an ordinary

836
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:25,840
differential equation we tend to say

837
00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:28,080
there's uniqueness in existence however

838
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:29,840
that's contingent on something called

839
00:30:33,750 --> 00:30:32,159
the lipschitz continuity and if you

840
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:33,760
don't have lift shit's continuity you

841
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:35,600
don't necessarily have a unique solution

842
00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:36,960
so you basically set up a certain

843
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:39,200
situation with a ball on a dome and the

844
00:30:42,789 --> 00:30:41,120
equation for the dome is fairly simple

845
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:42,799
it's almost like a parabola and then it

846
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:44,320
turns out one solution is it stays there

847
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:46,640
forever the zero velocity initially and

848
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:49,279
then another solution is at some point t

849
00:30:54,149 --> 00:30:51,840
and the time t is not specified it goes

850
00:30:55,510 --> 00:30:54,159
down some route and any one of them so

851
00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:55,520
that's extremely interesting let's

852
00:30:59,110 --> 00:30:57,519
imagine we live in a newtonian world is

853
00:31:00,710 --> 00:30:59,120
that related to free will would you say

854
00:31:02,549 --> 00:31:00,720
or is that not related to free will

855
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:02,559
that's something different i know a free

856
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:04,720
will forget about the sense of intention

857
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:06,640
interacting with the laws of nature to

858
00:31:10,149 --> 00:31:08,559
produce that effect yeah the norton's

859
00:31:11,509 --> 00:31:10,159
dome it's also um i think it was

860
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:11,519
actually sabine

861
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:13,840
um who has a um

862
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:17,279
one of her fqxi essays that she points

863
00:31:21,269 --> 00:31:19,200
out that chaos

864
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:21,279
is what is in some sense it can be a

865
00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:22,640
much stronger phenomenon than people

866
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:24,320
understand and that you can set up

867
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:25,840
physical systems

868
00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:27,600
in which the chaos is to such a degree

869
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:29,120
that actually passes a certain point in

870
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:32,000
time you cannot there it is not defined

871
00:31:34,870 --> 00:31:33,039
but the state of the system will be

872
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:34,880
after that so that's i think that's the

873
00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:37,120
context in which i ran across it it's

874
00:31:40,630 --> 00:31:38,880
also they're related things the work

875
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:40,640
that goes back to um two people called

876
00:31:45,029 --> 00:31:42,640
parel and richards

877
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:45,039
um those were physicists who as well

878
00:31:48,230 --> 00:31:46,960
known that for example the three-body

879
00:31:50,470 --> 00:31:48,240
problem

880
00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:50,480
um where even if you do so there you do

881
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:52,320
have the standalone continuity and so on

882
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:54,080
you've got gravitational attraction so

883
00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:54,799
on

884
00:31:58,789 --> 00:31:56,720
um you can

885
00:32:01,029 --> 00:31:58,799
set it up to be a what's called a

886
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:01,039
universal turing machine

887
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:03,440
you basically what you do is you encode

888
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:05,200
the um input

889
00:32:08,789 --> 00:32:07,600
tape to that turing machine

890
00:32:11,110 --> 00:32:08,799
into

891
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:11,120
the actual precise initial conditions of

892
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:13,279
these three bodies

893
00:32:19,029 --> 00:32:16,480
and then by reading the appropriate

894
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:19,039
bits of the state of the system at some

895
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:20,480
future time

896
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:22,240
you can figure out what that universal

897
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:24,640
turing machine state of its tape would

898
00:32:29,509 --> 00:32:26,880
be at that time

899
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:29,519
what this means is that you can feed in

900
00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:30,960
a configuration that's actually the

901
00:32:34,789 --> 00:32:32,399
halting problem

902
00:32:37,509 --> 00:32:34,799
so that that physical system in fact it

903
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:37,519
violates the church turing thesis

904
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:39,600
that that physical system its um as

905
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:41,120
state in the future would not be

906
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:42,960
computable

907
00:32:45,669 --> 00:32:44,720
so it's a very closely related kind of

908
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:45,679
result

909
00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:48,880
describing

910
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:50,480
are stronger in that they don't

911
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:53,840
presuppose differential equations

912
00:32:58,149 --> 00:32:55,679
they don't suppose any of that kind of

913
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:58,159
lawful structure whatsoever

914
00:33:01,350 --> 00:32:59,919
um so that's the sense in which they

915
00:33:02,549 --> 00:33:01,360
would hold no matter what the laws of

916
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:02,559
physics are

917
00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:04,559
and that's this that is for that reason

918
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:07,200
as well that they encompass any possible

919
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:09,519
supernatural

920
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:15,430
phenomenology um

921
00:33:19,750 --> 00:33:17,840
impact on the real world not no matter

922
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:19,760
how you might even think about it

923
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:22,320
because it's they're just subsets of the

924
00:33:25,669 --> 00:33:24,240
set of all possible world lines and

925
00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:25,679
world lines

926
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:27,440
in this sense

927
00:33:31,669 --> 00:33:30,159
they're just a um

928
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:31,679
themselves

929
00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:34,080
are a set of events in a completely

930
00:33:37,269 --> 00:33:36,000
arbitrary

931
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:37,279
sense what the word event means it

932
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:40,080
doesn't even presuppose space time

933
00:33:43,669 --> 00:33:42,159
um really the mathematics just says here

934
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:43,679
is a set i'm going to call the elements

935
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:45,360
the set world lines

936
00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:46,480
because that's what they happen to

937
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:48,799
correspond to in our kind of world but

938
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:51,120
they're just things

939
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:53,440
and um there and everything that's got

940
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:56,480
that we as humans would call rules and

941
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:58,720
laws concerning them

942
00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:00,559
has to do with things like um

943
00:34:03,669 --> 00:34:02,480
observation operators on them and

944
00:34:05,590 --> 00:34:03,679
projections and things like that but

945
00:34:07,669 --> 00:34:05,600
that's all extra structure just the

946
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,679
topology of it the fact that you have

947
00:34:11,829 --> 00:34:09,679
these interlocking subsets that itself

948
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:11,839
has many consequences

949
00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:14,480
one of which is the monotheism theorem

950
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:16,800
you could maybe have a god

951
00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:19,839
but you can't have more than one

952
00:34:22,869 --> 00:34:20,960
um i

953
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:22,879
i view that

954
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:24,800
the way that i

955
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,359
how to phrase this

956
00:34:32,069 --> 00:34:29,520
i play a bunch of fast and loose games

957
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:32,079
when i describe this result

958
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:34,720
on the one hand almost to protect myself

959
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:37,919
in intellectual discourse

960
00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:40,159
i want to say that i'm phrasing that

961
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:42,720
theorem very much tongue-in-cheek

962
00:34:47,030 --> 00:34:45,280
and there's an element of truth to that

963
00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:47,040
but without

964
00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:48,480
making a

965
00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:49,760
firm

966
00:34:53,589 --> 00:34:51,440
declaration

967
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,599
i would say quite honestly

968
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:55,280
that this does

969
00:35:00,390 --> 00:34:58,240
prove that by any notion of a deity in

970
00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:00,400
any of the world's religions and any

971
00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:03,440
philosopher might ever have come up with

972
00:35:07,349 --> 00:35:04,960
no you can't have more than one this

973
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:07,359
actually does prove monotheism

974
00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:09,200
so if you push me to the wall i'm going

975
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:10,960
to go tongue-in-cheek and say well i'll

976
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:12,800
be using my definitions

977
00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:14,880
but there's a large part of me that's

978
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:16,800
thinking that no in fact this does prove

979
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:18,800
that you can't have more yet polytheism

980
00:35:22,150 --> 00:35:20,800
is ruled out sorry

981
00:35:24,870 --> 00:35:22,160
this sounds like a great time to talk

982
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:24,880
about what an observer is

983
00:35:30,230 --> 00:35:27,680
so an observer in this sense

984
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:30,240
is basically an inference device if

985
00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:32,240
we're talking so an observer we could be

986
00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:33,440
thinking about there's many different

987
00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:35,680
frameworks the way that i know how to

988
00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:39,680
phrase this okay this is a digression um

989
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:42,240
or a diversion i'll i'll come back i'm

990
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,430
when i

991
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:50,230
do

992
00:35:53,589 --> 00:35:51,520
my own

993
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:53,599
personal philosophizing if that's the

994
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:55,280
world when i built when i

995
00:36:02,710 --> 00:35:58,560
construct configure my own

996
00:36:07,030 --> 00:36:04,870
dwelling that's got to do with

997
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:07,040
that i call the philosophy house

998
00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:08,880
so to speak

999
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:11,040
what what it really amounts to is the

1000
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:13,520
following that there are different

1001
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:15,680
i'm almost exclusively interested in

1002
00:36:22,230 --> 00:36:18,240
metaphysics i frankly couldn't care less

1003
00:36:25,109 --> 00:36:22,240
about philosophy of art for example i

1004
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:25,119
think it's an oxymoron philosophy of

1005
00:36:29,349 --> 00:36:27,359
morality i think harsanyi's got some

1006
00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:29,359
interesting things to say

1007
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:32,720
rawls um less so singer i think has some

1008
00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:34,320
interesting things to say

1009
00:36:39,270 --> 00:36:37,040
but not all that much more than that um

1010
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:39,280
but so mostly it's metaphysics in other

1011
00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:41,040
words what is reality and so on and so

1012
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:41,920
forth

1013
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:44,079
and basically as you strip and what

1014
00:36:49,349 --> 00:36:45,839
philosophy house

1015
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:49,359
is built upon is the understanding that

1016
00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:51,839
you can do certain investigations where

1017
00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:54,240
you make certain assumptions

1018
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:56,720
then when you weaken those assumptions a

1019
00:37:00,069 --> 00:36:58,640
lot of it falls apart and you get to a

1020
00:37:01,910 --> 00:37:00,079
deeper level of reality where there's

1021
00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:01,920
less structure

1022
00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:03,680
weaken assumptions and you keep going

1023
00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:05,680
down and down and down until the whole

1024
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:08,400
thing actually eats itself

1025
00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:09,280
so

1026
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:11,520
up at one level

1027
00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:14,560
i'm more than happy to be a steadfast

1028
00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:16,960
card-carrying member of the school of

1029
00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:19,359
people call themselves scientists

1030
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:20,880
scientific realists whatever you might

1031
00:37:25,349 --> 00:37:23,119
want to call it um

1032
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:25,359
then at another level

1033
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:27,119
you can start to say well what is

1034
00:37:31,829 --> 00:37:30,079
reality you can't even define it

1035
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:31,839
and

1036
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:33,760
you start to then start worrying about

1037
00:37:38,950 --> 00:37:36,640
things like inference devices you can

1038
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:38,960
then say wait a second combine what you

1039
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:40,000
just

1040
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:42,079
said about no reality is more real than

1041
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,440
any other that all of them are just

1042
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:45,599
different these subsets

1043
00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:47,920
of possible universes that

1044
00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:49,200
you can have define these inference

1045
00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:50,880
devices structures that's all that any

1046
00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:52,240
reality is

1047
00:37:56,069 --> 00:37:53,760
that none is any

1048
00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:56,079
is a privilege over any other

1049
00:37:59,430 --> 00:37:57,760
doesn't that also can't you also then

1050
00:38:01,990 --> 00:37:59,440
apply that to your own reasoning your

1051
00:38:03,829 --> 00:38:02,000
own question answer process

1052
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:03,839
and conclude that that itself is going

1053
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:05,760
to be illegitimate in a sort of apost

1054
00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:07,599
demons kind of sense

1055
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:09,839
so you've just concluded that no reality

1056
00:38:14,069 --> 00:38:12,000
is privileged above any other

1057
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:14,079
but in doing so if you want to strip

1058
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,720
down the very last remaining assumption

1059
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,560
you are not allowed to assume that your

1060
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:21,119
reasoning process itself is somehow

1061
00:38:25,750 --> 00:38:22,720
proof against

1062
00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:25,760
um that kind of conclusion

1063
00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:28,079
and so as was put in i think as one of

1064
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:30,240
the hitchhikers guides

1065
00:38:35,349 --> 00:38:32,800
um uh little um

1066
00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:35,359
[Music]

1067
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:38,160
episodes that everything vanishes in a

1068
00:38:41,670 --> 00:38:39,839
proof of logic

1069
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:41,680
um and that's where you would ultimately

1070
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:42,880
end up going

1071
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:44,800
so the reason i mention that is when you

1072
00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:47,440
say the word observation

1073
00:38:51,430 --> 00:38:49,040
it can mean very different things

1074
00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:51,440
depending on where we are in this whole

1075
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:52,800
edifice

1076
00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:54,720
this philosophy house where we're

1077
00:38:59,829 --> 00:38:56,960
stripping out assumptions and so on

1078
00:39:03,030 --> 00:38:59,839
in the context of inference devices

1079
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:03,040
observation is just like prediction

1080
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:04,960
control or memory

1081
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:06,320
for that matter

1082
00:39:10,470 --> 00:39:08,640
it's just a way for you to be posing

1083
00:39:11,589 --> 00:39:10,480
questions you then have an observation

1084
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:11,599
device

1085
00:39:15,750 --> 00:39:14,800
that is providing you answers and what

1086
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:15,760
the

1087
00:39:23,349 --> 00:39:19,920
you

1088
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:23,359
observation device is they're always

1089
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:24,800
going to be situations where the answer

1090
00:39:29,109 --> 00:39:26,960
gives you is wrong

1091
00:39:31,109 --> 00:39:29,119
so that's what observation means in the

1092
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:31,119
context of inference devices it means

1093
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:33,599
other things in other contexts

1094
00:39:35,670 --> 00:39:34,880
um

1095
00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:35,680
but

1096
00:39:42,550 --> 00:39:38,800
in the structure of instruments devices

1097
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:42,560
note that prediction and memory are

1098
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:44,240
identical

1099
00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:45,760
so

1100
00:39:50,390 --> 00:39:48,400
the block model of the universe that we

1101
00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:50,400
think we were talking about last time

1102
00:39:53,829 --> 00:39:52,480
the second law and the psychological era

1103
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:53,839
of time

1104
00:39:57,109 --> 00:39:54,960
memory

1105
00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:57,119
is just retrodiction it's a prediction

1106
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,200
about the past rather than the future

1107
00:40:02,390 --> 00:40:00,960
that we suppose

1108
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:02,400
for reasons having to do with the second

1109
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:03,440
law

1110
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:05,280
um has to be

1111
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,960
much more accurate at least some of our

1112
00:40:10,630 --> 00:40:08,880
memory than our predictions why do you

1113
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:10,640
say that it's a prediction about the

1114
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:12,560
past rather than a statement about the

1115
00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:14,400
past ah because we have no way of

1116
00:40:19,670 --> 00:40:16,960
knowing it's true it's a statistical

1117
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:19,680
it's identical there is no privileged

1118
00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:21,359
arrow of time

1119
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:23,040
this is um something that physicists

1120
00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:25,280
have been wrestling with especially

1121
00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:26,800
cosmologists i think i mentioned last

1122
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:29,359
time there's a 1973

1123
00:40:33,349 --> 00:40:31,599
book by paul davies the physics of time

1124
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:33,359
asymmetry and sean carroll's got some

1125
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:34,880
nice stuff in this

1126
00:40:38,990 --> 00:40:37,040
and there's i i have a paper in i think

1127
00:40:42,309 --> 00:40:39,000
it was

1128
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:42,319
1992 in the international journal of

1129
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:44,000
theoretical physics

1130
00:40:47,430 --> 00:40:45,839
on these kinds of things there is no

1131
00:40:48,870 --> 00:40:47,440
sense in which the past is more real in

1132
00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:48,880
the future

1133
00:40:53,589 --> 00:40:50,800
all moments are just as real as one

1134
00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:53,599
another and all that we are doing as

1135
00:40:59,190 --> 00:40:56,880
scientists or as people remembering

1136
00:41:00,870 --> 00:40:59,200
is making statistics predictions in the

1137
00:41:04,829 --> 00:41:00,880
statistic sense

1138
00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:04,839
despite that um uh prefix the word pre

1139
00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:06,400
addiction

1140
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:07,440
from a

1141
00:41:11,430 --> 00:41:08,800
scientific point of view from the point

1142
00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:11,440
of view of the laws of physics

1143
00:41:15,349 --> 00:41:12,720
there is no difference between a

1144
00:41:17,430 --> 00:41:15,359
prediction and a retrodiction

1145
00:41:19,510 --> 00:41:17,440
they are both using

1146
00:41:21,750 --> 00:41:19,520
null data at the present to make a

1147
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:21,760
statistical estimate

1148
00:41:26,309 --> 00:41:23,839
of the state of a variable at a time

1149
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:26,319
other than the present

1150
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:28,480
so retrodiction you could be wrong

1151
00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:29,920
and in fact

1152
00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:31,760
that's of course um a whole another body

1153
00:41:34,870 --> 00:41:32,960
of the

1154
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:34,880
work and things we could discuss about

1155
00:41:37,910 --> 00:41:36,960
is how in fact the mind very often is

1156
00:41:40,230 --> 00:41:37,920
wrong

1157
00:41:42,630 --> 00:41:40,240
and there's implanted memories and just

1158
00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:42,640
generally fallibility of memory and

1159
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:44,000
all this business about how

1160
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:45,760
consciousness is a

1161
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:48,400
just so story that we concoct

1162
00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:49,680
to try to give us the illusion that

1163
00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:51,280
we're actually in control that we have

1164
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:54,240
some memory accurate memory of the past

1165
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:56,560
and that both are actually erroneous

1166
00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:58,880
um but so anyway

1167
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:01,599
memory is just retrodiction

1168
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:04,880
and so it is as prone subject to all

1169
00:42:09,829 --> 00:42:06,960
these impossibility results as any of

1170
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:09,839
the inference device

1171
00:42:13,190 --> 00:42:11,440
so what that means in particular is what

1172
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:13,200
the plus was only thinking forward in

1173
00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:14,560
time

1174
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:16,720
the impossibility and so he wouldn't

1175
00:42:21,109 --> 00:42:19,040
even think there was an issue for having

1176
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:21,119
of having to construct a demon

1177
00:42:24,470 --> 00:42:22,960
that would actually predict the past you

1178
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:24,480
just simply say you you remember the

1179
00:42:28,069 --> 00:42:25,680
past

1180
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:28,079
and so sure your memories are 100

1181
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:29,200
accurate

1182
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:30,640
in point of fact

1183
00:42:32,950 --> 00:42:31,359
no

1184
00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:32,960
according to these impossibility results

1185
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:34,560
for the same reason that laplace cannot

1186
00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:37,680
predict the future with 100 accuracy

1187
00:42:40,870 --> 00:42:39,839
it's impossible to build a 100 percent

1188
00:42:43,270 --> 00:42:40,880
accurate

1189
00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:43,280
memory device

1190
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:45,520
memories will always be valuable will

1191
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,640
always be wrong there's always going to

1192
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:48,400
be one other memories and recording that

1193
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:50,960
device which could be your head

1194
00:42:57,510 --> 00:42:55,430
is there a relationship between the no

1195
00:42:59,510 --> 00:42:57,520
free lunch theorem and the limits on

1196
00:43:02,790 --> 00:42:59,520
inference devices

1197
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:02,800
very good question so i found

1198
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:04,720
somewhat to my bemusement that a lot of

1199
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:06,000
the

1200
00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:07,440
stuff that i

1201
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:13,040
investigate the things that i chew on

1202
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:15,280
have to do with impossibilities

1203
00:43:19,109 --> 00:43:17,200
no free lunch is one of them inference

1204
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:19,119
devices is another one

1205
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:21,040
as i think i mentioned to you

1206
00:43:26,309 --> 00:43:23,280
the notion that mathematics itself might

1207
00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:26,319
be inherently sarcastic which is you uh

1208
00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:28,000
offline we discussed about how that's

1209
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:30,160
related to intuitionism

1210
00:43:34,550 --> 00:43:32,720
some of the ideas of nikolas um gisen

1211
00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:34,560
and intuitionism of course

1212
00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:36,800
traces back to brower

1213
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:38,960
um a great mathematician the 20th

1214
00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:40,960
century

1215
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:42,160
and i think that there are some

1216
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:44,079
potentially some possibility results

1217
00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:45,599
there as well

1218
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:47,680
but all of these i suspect have to be

1219
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:50,480
related to one another

1220
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:57,030
that's on my

1221
00:44:02,870 --> 00:43:59,760
i've got everybody's got to do lists

1222
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:02,880
and that's on one of my longer term

1223
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:04,800
greatest size font

1224
00:44:08,790 --> 00:44:07,200
so to speak to do lists

1225
00:44:11,910 --> 00:44:08,800
is figure out

1226
00:44:13,750 --> 00:44:11,920
how to integrate these impossibility

1227
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:13,760
results there's also ones that i haven't

1228
00:44:16,069 --> 00:44:15,200
that weren't the ones that i came up

1229
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:16,079
with

1230
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:18,240
there are the impossibility results um

1231
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:19,440
that are involved with that have to do

1232
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:21,760
with touring machines and girdle and so

1233
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:22,800
on

1234
00:44:28,309 --> 00:44:25,680
um you think they're all related

1235
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:28,319
well for example i'm doing some work at

1236
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:29,760
a very very

1237
00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:32,079
low burner i wish i could do it um more

1238
00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:33,280
intensely

1239
00:44:38,790 --> 00:44:36,800
um on trying to

1240
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:38,800
take you exploit the church touring

1241
00:44:43,349 --> 00:44:40,400
thesis

1242
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:43,359
um to be able to say that in and as

1243
00:44:48,309 --> 00:44:46,319
within the context of inference devices

1244
00:44:49,829 --> 00:44:48,319
to say that if there is a universal

1245
00:44:52,150 --> 00:44:49,839
turing machine it's going to be

1246
00:44:54,309 --> 00:44:52,160
inference device

1247
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:54,319
and can the and the impossibility

1248
00:44:58,470 --> 00:44:56,880
results concerning inference devices

1249
00:45:00,230 --> 00:44:58,480
do they for example tell us something

1250
00:45:01,990 --> 00:45:00,240
like you can't have two

1251
00:45:03,589 --> 00:45:02,000
um uh

1252
00:45:04,870 --> 00:45:03,599
perfectly accurate universal turing

1253
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:04,880
machines

1254
00:45:09,829 --> 00:45:06,880
do they say do they provide another way

1255
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:09,839
to prove the halting theorem

1256
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:12,000
and so that's on my to-do list to see if

1257
00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:14,000
they might be integrated that way

1258
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:15,440
um another

1259
00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:17,280
interesting thing is that the inference

1260
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:18,720
devices

1261
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:21,760
structure that i was describing to you

1262
00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:22,720
um

1263
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:24,640
had no probability distributions over it

1264
00:45:29,910 --> 00:45:27,040
we were just talking about subsets of um

1265
00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:29,920
the set of all possible world lines

1266
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:31,680
well let's slap down a probability

1267
00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:33,280
distribution

1268
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:34,960
we can now modify some of our

1269
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:37,200
definitions of what it means to infer

1270
00:45:39,190 --> 00:45:38,160
something

1271
00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:39,200
accurately

1272
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:40,079
to be

1273
00:45:45,750 --> 00:45:42,160
to infer with a higher than certain

1274
00:45:48,069 --> 00:45:45,760
probability of being correct

1275
00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:48,079
we can then say well over all possible

1276
00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:50,400
probability distributions

1277
00:45:53,829 --> 00:45:52,000
so right so that what that means is that

1278
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:53,839
rather than the impossibility results of

1279
00:45:57,430 --> 00:45:55,359
an inference devices that concern for

1280
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:57,440
example two deities

1281
00:46:02,710 --> 00:45:59,760
instead what you start talking about the

1282
00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:02,720
probability distribute of all the worst

1283
00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:03,599
case

1284
00:46:10,069 --> 00:46:04,960
probability

1285
00:46:11,670 --> 00:46:10,079
that both deities could be um uh correct

1286
00:46:13,270 --> 00:46:11,680
or was the best case probability that

1287
00:46:15,190 --> 00:46:13,280
they could be correct over all possible

1288
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:15,200
probability distributions

1289
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:16,960
so rather than saying it's impossible

1290
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:19,119
for them to both always be overall

1291
00:46:20,950 --> 00:46:20,079
interesting

1292
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:20,960
yeah

1293
00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:22,640
and guess what you actually get some

1294
00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:24,640
results out of that that look a little

1295
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:26,240
bit like the heisenberg uncertainty

1296
00:46:30,630 --> 00:46:28,800
principle is this published work um i

1297
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:30,640
think it's mentioned in one of my papers

1298
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:32,480
but it's both that and the turing

1299
00:46:36,069 --> 00:46:34,319
machine stuff

1300
00:46:38,470 --> 00:46:36,079
very tentative

1301
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:38,480
there's a lot more that needs to be done

1302
00:46:41,910 --> 00:46:39,520
and that i

1303
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:41,920
want to get to at some point i mean

1304
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:43,920
there's this meta optimization problem

1305
00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:44,800
for

1306
00:46:48,309 --> 00:46:47,200
people who are so very very lucky like

1307
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:48,319
as me

1308
00:46:52,470 --> 00:46:50,960
that society provides us the resources

1309
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:52,480
to go off and

1310
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:55,040
well play is the way it feels like to me

1311
00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:01,990
i wouldn't use the word plus i mean i

1312
00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:04,319
mean fortunate but fortunate yes people

1313
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:06,240
who are so fortunate

1314
00:47:09,510 --> 00:47:08,400
um there's this optimization question of

1315
00:47:12,150 --> 00:47:09,520
well there's all these things that you

1316
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:12,160
do want to work on

1317
00:47:15,190 --> 00:47:13,760
you've only got some finite number of

1318
00:47:16,069 --> 00:47:15,200
years left you don't even know what they

1319
00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:16,079
are

1320
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:18,160
prioritize dude or do that as the case

1321
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:19,920
might be

1322
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:21,839
and so i'm not sure so at some point yes

1323
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:23,520
i do want to work on these things but

1324
00:47:27,190 --> 00:47:25,440
the question is when and how and how to

1325
00:47:28,950 --> 00:47:27,200
get the time and if you can do it with

1326
00:47:30,549 --> 00:47:28,960
collaborators which i try to do and so

1327
00:47:31,990 --> 00:47:30,559
on and

1328
00:47:34,710 --> 00:47:32,000
it's one of the challenges of being

1329
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:34,720
somebody who's as fortunate as i am is

1330
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:36,880
what how best to use that fortune have

1331
00:47:41,109 --> 00:47:38,720
you heard of donald hoffman

1332
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:41,119
no i don't think so okay donald hoffman

1333
00:47:45,990 --> 00:47:42,800
has an argument that says whatever we

1334
00:47:47,109 --> 00:47:46,000
see is not reality as it is oh yes yes

1335
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:47,119
yes

1336
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:48,000
um

1337
00:47:51,190 --> 00:47:49,920
i don't think i i've drilled into it i

1338
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:51,200
don't think it really amounts to that

1339
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:52,559
much

1340
00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:55,119
um to be quite honest yes let's hear why

1341
00:48:01,750 --> 00:47:58,160
um i'd have to

1342
00:48:04,630 --> 00:48:01,760
go back and review my notes um

1343
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:06,230
i'm sorry

1344
00:48:10,150 --> 00:48:07,920
you um

1345
00:48:12,470 --> 00:48:10,160
so i've actually got i'm putting it up

1346
00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:12,480
right now for example my annotated

1347
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:14,720
version of his

1348
00:48:20,549 --> 00:48:16,240
work

1349
00:48:24,549 --> 00:48:23,190
yeah and this is too much

1350
00:48:34,950 --> 00:48:24,559
i

1351
00:48:37,109 --> 00:48:34,960
that's one of the other challenges um

1352
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:37,119
being fortunate is you have to very

1353
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:39,280
quickly come to decisions about whether

1354
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:40,800
it makes sense for you to be spending

1355
00:48:46,230 --> 00:48:42,800
any effort drilling down on things

1356
00:48:48,309 --> 00:48:46,240
so yeah i did look into his stuff and i

1357
00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:48,319
wasn't very impressed so there's one

1358
00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:50,079
particular article of his that you think

1359
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:51,839
i should maybe look at rather than

1360
00:48:55,349 --> 00:48:53,520
whatever i did look at if you could just

1361
00:48:56,470 --> 00:48:55,359
email that to me

1362
00:48:57,670 --> 00:48:56,480
i'll see if there's anything different

1363
00:48:59,990 --> 00:48:57,680
about that one

1364
00:49:01,670 --> 00:49:00,000
sure that's a quick aside

1365
00:49:03,670 --> 00:49:01,680
my background's not computer science as

1366
00:49:05,829 --> 00:49:03,680
you know whenever i've skimmed the

1367
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:05,839
church turing thesis it seems more like

1368
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:07,680
a definition of what it means to compute

1369
00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:09,839
rather than a theorem per se

1370
00:49:13,910 --> 00:49:12,240
it's very close to that it's very close

1371
00:49:16,309 --> 00:49:13,920
to that there's a question of whether

1372
00:49:17,829 --> 00:49:16,319
it's ultimately vacuous or not there's

1373
00:49:20,069 --> 00:49:17,839
something called the physical church

1374
00:49:22,309 --> 00:49:20,079
touring thesis

1375
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:22,319
where instead we people say things like

1376
00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:26,240
you cannot build a physical computer

1377
00:49:30,549 --> 00:49:28,480
that can do that

1378
00:49:32,710 --> 00:49:30,559
that implements algorithms

1379
00:49:35,430 --> 00:49:32,720
that can come to conclusions that would

1380
00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:35,440
not be um possible to do

1381
00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:36,800
on a physical

1382
00:49:40,950 --> 00:49:38,559
turing machine

1383
00:49:42,549 --> 00:49:40,960
and it's squirrely to even define it

1384
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:42,559
there there are different definitions

1385
00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:44,480
you can find in the literature

1386
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:47,040
scott aronson actually has a nice

1387
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:49,760
video at like two hours long where he

1388
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:52,240
talks about different um

1389
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:54,000
challenges to the physical church during

1390
00:49:57,270 --> 00:49:55,280
thesis

1391
00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:57,280
one of the reasons i recall that david

1392
00:50:01,430 --> 00:49:59,200
deutsch first started working in quantum

1393
00:50:03,190 --> 00:50:01,440
computation his original paper

1394
00:50:06,390 --> 00:50:03,200
was to try to say that well if the

1395
00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:06,400
physical church touring thesis can be

1396
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:10,079
either fully ironclad formalized and or

1397
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:12,720
i'm established as actually a law of

1398
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:13,760
nature

1399
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:15,760
that means we have to be able to express

1400
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:17,680
computation in purely quantum mechanical

1401
00:50:21,109 --> 00:50:19,760
systems because quantum mechanics is the

1402
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:21,119
law of nature

1403
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:23,440
so that was a large part as i understand

1404
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:25,760
it of his impetus for starting to work

1405
00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:27,520
on what now has become called quantum

1406
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:29,280
computation

1407
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:30,240
um

1408
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:32,000
so but yes you're correct that the

1409
00:50:35,190 --> 00:50:33,920
church touring thesis as it was

1410
00:50:37,829 --> 00:50:35,200
understood

1411
00:50:40,390 --> 00:50:37,839
say in the middle of the 20th century

1412
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:40,400
seemed very dangerously close to simply

1413
00:50:45,030 --> 00:50:42,319
being a definition rather than actually

1414
00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:45,040
a statement about the physical world

1415
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:46,720
so before we get to the audience

1416
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:47,680
questions

1417
00:50:50,549 --> 00:50:48,880
you mentioned

1418
00:50:52,870 --> 00:50:50,559
in one of your talks by the way during

1419
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:52,880
the break i did quickly remind myself

1420
00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:55,280
about um professor hoffman

1421
00:51:00,150 --> 00:50:56,240
okay

1422
00:51:02,150 --> 00:51:00,160
yeah and uh so what i understand and my

1423
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:02,160
take on

1424
00:51:07,109 --> 00:51:04,640
his work so in a nutshell

1425
00:51:10,230 --> 00:51:07,119
um he's a neuroscientist and

1426
00:51:13,109 --> 00:51:10,240
in a um extension of what we were

1427
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:13,119
talking about earlier a vast um

1428
00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:15,680
elaboration of the notion that

1429
00:51:19,829 --> 00:51:18,079
um uh consciousness and so on and so

1430
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:19,839
forth it's all a fable

1431
00:51:25,109 --> 00:51:22,720
um he has been doing a lot of work

1432
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:25,119
showing that in particular

1433
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:28,640
our understanding of the external world

1434
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:30,480
is completely concocted

1435
00:51:35,190 --> 00:51:32,720
that it's whatever our

1436
00:51:37,430 --> 00:51:35,200
century apparatus is going to think is

1437
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:37,440
actually most effective

1438
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:38,480
um

1439
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:40,960
how to phrase it our sentry apparatus is

1440
00:51:45,109 --> 00:51:42,960
going to be telling us

1441
00:51:47,430 --> 00:51:45,119
precisely whatever natural selection

1442
00:51:49,589 --> 00:51:47,440
finds out by trial and error

1443
00:51:52,069 --> 00:51:49,599
is the best thing to tell us to get us

1444
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:52,079
to act in an efficient way

1445
00:51:55,349 --> 00:51:54,079
as far as our reproductive success is

1446
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:55,359
concerned

1447
00:52:00,150 --> 00:51:58,079
that which is telling us to do that

1448
00:52:02,950 --> 00:52:00,160
might have nothing really to do with any

1449
00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:02,960
kind of an external physical reality

1450
00:52:07,349 --> 00:52:05,280
it's kind of an elaboration of all the

1451
00:52:09,910 --> 00:52:07,359
um aspects that what you think you are

1452
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:09,920
seeing for example you are not it's all

1453
00:52:12,870 --> 00:52:11,280
being filled in with what's called

1454
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:12,880
predictive coding

1455
00:52:15,829 --> 00:52:14,160
in its broadest sense in the

1456
00:52:19,349 --> 00:52:15,839
neuroscience community

1457
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:19,359
and so my understanding of his work

1458
00:52:23,829 --> 00:52:21,760
was that he has done some interesting

1459
00:52:25,829 --> 00:52:23,839
things related to that particular

1460
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:25,839
scientific issue

1461
00:52:31,349 --> 00:52:29,040
but then um sort of uh

1462
00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:31,359
well frankly puffs it up

1463
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:33,440
as to saying something about there is no

1464
00:52:36,549 --> 00:52:35,680
objective reality and so on and so forth

1465
00:52:39,109 --> 00:52:36,559
it's

1466
00:52:41,109 --> 00:52:39,119
no rather our human being fallible

1467
00:52:43,829 --> 00:52:41,119
perception of reality

1468
00:52:45,670 --> 00:52:43,839
um it can be very very different

1469
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:45,680
and natural selection in fact you would

1470
00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:47,520
say which should make it be very very

1471
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:48,640
different

1472
00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:50,400
from what we would from what an actual

1473
00:52:54,230 --> 00:52:52,640
reality is

1474
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:54,240
okay now before we get to some audience

1475
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:55,760
quest and just so you know as an aside i

1476
00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:57,599
don't believe donald hoffman although

1477
00:53:00,710 --> 00:52:59,040
maybe you have a different paper i don't

1478
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:00,720
believe he indicates that there is no

1479
00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:03,280
reality he does say what you said which

1480
00:53:06,870 --> 00:53:05,599
is that our relationship to that reality

1481
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:06,880
because the way that he constructs

1482
00:53:10,309 --> 00:53:08,720
reality it looks strange the way that

1483
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:10,319
it's like three it's like agents

1484
00:53:15,270 --> 00:53:12,480
interacting with one another etc that's

1485
00:53:16,790 --> 00:53:15,280
the truth

1486
00:53:19,190 --> 00:53:16,800
that was just based on a quick skim

1487
00:53:20,790 --> 00:53:19,200
reminding myself from i have to put

1488
00:53:22,710 --> 00:53:20,800
after you admit the very pedestrian

1489
00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:22,720
source which is quantum magazine that's

1490
00:53:27,190 --> 00:53:24,640
okay and one of your talks i think in

1491
00:53:29,430 --> 00:53:27,200
one of your fqxi talks you mentioned

1492
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:29,440
that some of the most profound results

1493
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:31,440
in philosophy come from algorithmic

1494
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:33,440
information theory yeah and

1495
00:53:36,790 --> 00:53:34,800
coincidentally i'll be speaking to

1496
00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:36,800
gregory chayton in a few weeks

1497
00:53:40,549 --> 00:53:38,079
so okay

1498
00:53:44,390 --> 00:53:40,559
please explain to me why you think that

1499
00:53:46,790 --> 00:53:44,400
okay i can use one of um uh greg

1500
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:46,800
chetan i mean he does insist that be

1501
00:53:50,390 --> 00:53:49,280
pronounced chaitin rather than shaytan

1502
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:50,400
um

1503
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:52,559
he's a very interesting fellow in many

1504
00:53:55,270 --> 00:53:54,160
ways and he's done some great work one

1505
00:53:57,430 --> 00:53:55,280
of his

1506
00:53:59,430 --> 00:53:57,440
results in fact i think does have this

1507
00:54:01,510 --> 00:53:59,440
character to it he's got an

1508
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:01,520
impossibility theorem

1509
00:54:06,549 --> 00:54:05,280
which is um basically it says that there

1510
00:54:08,710 --> 00:54:06,559
is

1511
00:54:09,670 --> 00:54:08,720
a integer

1512
00:54:11,109 --> 00:54:09,680
um

1513
00:54:14,470 --> 00:54:11,119
l

1514
00:54:16,190 --> 00:54:14,480
such that we can never ever prove

1515
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:16,200
that any particular

1516
00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:17,599
[Music]

1517
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:19,760
um uh

1518
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:21,119
computation

1519
00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:23,520
that we would want to do any particular

1520
00:54:29,190 --> 00:54:24,480
string

1521
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:31,670
okay there is some such integer and

1522
00:54:35,750 --> 00:54:33,760
he actually has an estimate of it as i

1523
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:35,760
believe based upon this programs of

1524
00:54:39,109 --> 00:54:36,640
being

1525
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:39,119
4000 if you're using lisp as your turing

1526
00:54:40,789 --> 00:54:40,000
machine

1527
00:54:42,789 --> 00:54:40,799
um

1528
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:42,799
but think about what that means

1529
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:44,720
there's going to be this number like ml

1530
00:54:47,829 --> 00:54:46,400
which is like say 4 000 that's saying

1531
00:54:50,150 --> 00:54:47,839
that you know anything that's longer

1532
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:50,160
than 4 000 bytes

1533
00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:52,799
um so you cannot prove that the komodo

1534
00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:55,760
complexity of any particular string

1535
00:55:00,470 --> 00:54:59,280
is going to be greater than 4000 bytes

1536
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:00,480
we know

1537
00:55:05,430 --> 00:55:03,520
that there's a very finite number of uh

1538
00:55:06,710 --> 00:55:05,440
strings that have less than four

1539
00:55:08,950 --> 00:55:06,720
thousand bytes

1540
00:55:10,390 --> 00:55:08,960
at most depending on the grammar and

1541
00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:10,400
syntax of your

1542
00:55:13,349 --> 00:55:11,760
language and so on it would be two to

1543
00:55:14,470 --> 00:55:13,359
the four thousand which would be a big

1544
00:55:17,030 --> 00:55:14,480
number but

1545
00:55:19,190 --> 00:55:17,040
i'm not it's very very finite

1546
00:55:21,430 --> 00:55:19,200
so that means that there's an infinite

1547
00:55:22,870 --> 00:55:21,440
number of strings

1548
00:55:25,589 --> 00:55:22,880
that exist

1549
00:55:29,829 --> 00:55:25,599
whose komodo complexity

1550
00:55:33,589 --> 00:55:31,910
so we can never know what is the

1551
00:55:34,630 --> 00:55:33,599
simplest program

1552
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:34,640
size

1553
00:55:39,349 --> 00:55:37,280
for determining the simplest program

1554
00:55:41,510 --> 00:55:39,359
for actually doing those calculations

1555
00:55:43,990 --> 00:55:41,520
it's an amazing restriction on what we

1556
00:55:46,150 --> 00:55:44,000
human beings can do

1557
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:46,160
to give you another example this is one

1558
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:49,680
that i know best from my a book by um

1559
00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:51,680
lee and vitani it's kind of like the

1560
00:55:57,030 --> 00:55:54,640
bible and these turing machine things

1561
00:56:00,230 --> 00:55:57,040
you can actually

1562
00:56:02,789 --> 00:56:00,240
prove the existence of a function

1563
00:56:05,349 --> 00:56:02,799
from the integers to the integers

1564
00:56:06,950 --> 00:56:05,359
which is always increasing it never it

1565
00:56:09,270 --> 00:56:06,960
never sometimes will stay the same but

1566
00:56:11,589 --> 00:56:09,280
it never goes down and eventually gets

1567
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:11,599
to infinity

1568
00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:14,079
such that every function you can

1569
00:56:19,990 --> 00:56:17,200
possibly compute no matter how you do it

1570
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:20,000
that is also always increasing and gets

1571
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:21,200
to infinity

1572
00:56:26,789 --> 00:56:24,960
will be strictly greater than this

1573
00:56:28,710 --> 00:56:26,799
you wouldn't have even thought there is

1574
00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:28,720
such a limitation that could even make

1575
00:56:31,829 --> 00:56:29,680
sense

1576
00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:31,839
do whatever you want say okay here's a

1577
00:56:35,190 --> 00:56:33,280
function which

1578
00:56:37,270 --> 00:56:35,200
it has the value one

1579
00:56:39,670 --> 00:56:37,280
for the first million numbers from one

1580
00:56:42,150 --> 00:56:39,680
through a million it's got the value one

1581
00:56:44,390 --> 00:56:42,160
then it's got the value two but that's

1582
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:44,400
for the next million to the millions

1583
00:56:46,789 --> 00:56:45,359
okay

1584
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:46,799
you know make it be whatever you want

1585
00:56:50,950 --> 00:56:48,799
every rule that you can put down for how

1586
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:50,960
to construct this

1587
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:52,880
it's going to actually be getting to

1588
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:56,400
infinity faster than this other function

1589
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:59,520
which is a very strange thing and it's

1590
00:57:02,309 --> 00:57:00,960
reality

1591
00:57:05,109 --> 00:57:02,319
it's one of the most fundamental

1592
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:05,119
philosophical results in the sense that

1593
00:57:09,670 --> 00:57:07,200
philosophy

1594
00:57:13,750 --> 00:57:09,680
should not be biased towards what we

1595
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:13,760
human beings consider to be compelling i

1596
00:57:19,349 --> 00:57:15,760
find it that

1597
00:57:21,750 --> 00:57:19,359
impossibility results in general

1598
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:21,760
and of these sorts in particular

1599
00:57:26,230 --> 00:57:24,319
they are very deep philosophy whether or

1600
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:26,240
not we even appreciate they had meaning

1601
00:57:30,390 --> 00:57:28,400
before we came across them

1602
00:57:31,990 --> 00:57:30,400
um another one what was the name of that

1603
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:32,000
one that second one

1604
00:57:34,630 --> 00:57:33,680
oh this is i don't even think it has a

1605
00:57:39,349 --> 00:57:34,640
name

1606
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:39,359
point you to the chapter and yeah

1607
00:57:43,750 --> 00:57:41,119
um it's but there's another one that for

1608
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:43,760
example um scott aronson has a nice blog

1609
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:46,160
post on this it's called the busy beaver

1610
00:57:49,990 --> 00:57:47,440
function

1611
00:57:52,150 --> 00:57:50,000
and he's actually recently written some

1612
00:57:53,750 --> 00:57:52,160
uh papers on it as well

1613
00:57:55,270 --> 00:57:53,760
and this is kind of the flip side of

1614
00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:55,280
what i just said

1615
00:57:59,190 --> 00:57:56,160
that

1616
00:58:01,910 --> 00:57:59,200
let's try to make the fastest increasing

1617
00:58:03,670 --> 00:58:01,920
function possible

1618
00:58:05,670 --> 00:58:03,680
so you curt

1619
00:58:08,309 --> 00:58:05,680
say that well for the value one it's got

1620
00:58:10,710 --> 00:58:08,319
the value one for the value 2 it's got

1621
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:10,720
the value 10 to the 10 to the 10.

1622
00:58:14,789 --> 00:58:12,960
for the value 3 it's got

1623
00:58:15,829 --> 00:58:14,799
white height for the value 2 but now

1624
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:15,839
itself

1625
00:58:20,870 --> 00:58:18,640
make it be whatever you want

1626
00:58:23,109 --> 00:58:20,880
there is always going to be something

1627
00:58:25,829 --> 00:58:23,119
which is called the busy beaver function

1628
00:58:28,470 --> 00:58:25,839
which is actually increasing faster than

1629
00:58:30,470 --> 00:58:28,480
the the fastest increasing function you

1630
00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:30,480
can write down in other words there's an

1631
00:58:36,870 --> 00:58:32,079
upper limit

1632
00:58:39,109 --> 00:58:36,880
the speed of increase of any function

1633
00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:39,119
from the introduce the integers that you

1634
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:41,760
can possibly define

1635
00:58:45,510 --> 00:58:43,760
it's it's in a certain sense it's

1636
00:58:47,910 --> 00:58:45,520
mind-boggling that there's that kind of

1637
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:47,920
a limitation on what we can do i'm not

1638
00:58:50,870 --> 00:58:49,680
understanding it correctly so at first

1639
00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:50,880
the way that i understood what you said

1640
00:58:54,230 --> 00:58:52,160
is that you have a function that's

1641
00:58:57,190 --> 00:58:54,240
increasing and then you can make it

1642
00:58:59,349 --> 00:58:57,200
increase faster but then there's a bound

1643
00:59:01,030 --> 00:58:59,359
there's about i can write down an

1644
00:59:02,390 --> 00:59:01,040
increase i can write down the definition

1645
00:59:04,950 --> 00:59:02,400
of a function

1646
00:59:07,190 --> 00:59:04,960
and it exists i can prove it exists

1647
00:59:09,430 --> 00:59:07,200
and it is an increasing function

1648
00:59:11,349 --> 00:59:09,440
and it will be increasing faster than

1649
00:59:12,150 --> 00:59:11,359
any function that you can possibly write

1650
00:59:14,069 --> 00:59:12,160
down

1651
00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:14,079
now i have a question about that like i

1652
00:59:17,510 --> 00:59:15,520
mentioned i'm speaking to someone who's

1653
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:17,520
an ultrafinitist an intuitionist and

1654
00:59:21,270 --> 00:59:19,440
they don't particularly like existence

1655
00:59:23,430 --> 00:59:21,280
proofs they like construction

1656
00:59:25,589 --> 00:59:23,440
yep and that's that is the foundation of

1657
00:59:27,910 --> 00:59:25,599
intuitionism i don't think that actually

1658
00:59:30,390 --> 00:59:27,920
nicholas gibson

1659
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:30,400
that goes that far though i'm not sure

1660
00:59:33,349 --> 00:59:32,400
he might in some side eddy of one of his

1661
00:59:35,349 --> 00:59:33,359
papers

1662
00:59:37,589 --> 00:59:35,359
um but yeah that was the foundation they

1663
00:59:39,829 --> 00:59:37,599
don't like existence proofs they want a

1664
00:59:41,030 --> 00:59:39,839
um constructive proof only is this

1665
00:59:43,190 --> 00:59:41,040
constructed or you just showed the

1666
00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:43,200
existence of this one oh the busy beaver

1667
00:59:48,309 --> 00:59:45,119
function um

1668
00:59:50,870 --> 00:59:48,319
it has been constructed for the first

1669
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:50,880
some number of values of what of the

1670
00:59:53,990 --> 00:59:52,400
integer so we know

1671
00:59:56,150 --> 00:59:54,000
for we can write down a busy beaver

1672
00:59:57,670 --> 00:59:56,160
function for one for two for three for

1673
01:00:00,789 --> 00:59:57,680
four and so on

1674
01:00:03,109 --> 01:00:00,799
up to some particular value but i think

1675
01:00:04,390 --> 01:00:03,119
that um in the busy beaver function in

1676
01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:04,400
its entirety

1677
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:06,000
almost by definition no it can't be

1678
01:00:11,190 --> 01:00:07,440
constructed

1679
01:00:13,990 --> 01:00:11,200
kurt would construct it

1680
01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:14,000
that's the point that this thing exists

1681
01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:15,440
wait sorry i don't get that last my way

1682
01:00:18,309 --> 01:00:16,720
if it could be constructed i could

1683
01:00:21,589 --> 01:00:18,319
construct it what do you mean

1684
01:00:24,549 --> 01:00:21,599
um so the definition so if if it if by

1685
01:00:27,270 --> 01:00:24,559
construct if i construct a function we

1686
01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:27,280
mean you write down a program

1687
01:00:31,030 --> 01:00:29,440
that spits out its values

1688
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:31,040
that's what we mean to construct a

1689
01:00:36,309 --> 01:00:33,520
function then the busy beaver function

1690
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:36,319
is something that increases faster than

1691
01:00:40,950 --> 01:00:38,160
could be the output of any such program

1692
01:00:43,510 --> 01:00:40,960
you can write down oh okay okay okay

1693
01:00:45,270 --> 01:00:43,520
mean it's very very easy to define

1694
01:00:47,990 --> 01:00:45,280
and um

1695
01:00:49,750 --> 01:00:48,000
and the uh so in

1696
01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:49,760
it is purely an existence function that

1697
01:00:54,950 --> 01:00:51,599
you can't construct it but

1698
01:00:57,190 --> 01:00:54,960
i can define it very very easily

1699
01:01:02,230 --> 01:00:57,200
um it takes only a couple of sentences

1700
01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:04,150
so there are these kinds of results

1701
01:01:08,069 --> 01:01:06,000
which

1702
01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:08,079
i find in many ways

1703
01:01:11,349 --> 01:01:09,760
flabbergasting

1704
01:01:14,309 --> 01:01:11,359
because they're

1705
01:01:18,870 --> 01:01:14,319
if one adopts the church turing thesis

1706
01:01:20,230 --> 01:01:18,880
these are limitations on human thinking

1707
01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:20,240
and there are other ones and this is an

1708
01:01:23,829 --> 01:01:21,440
addition to all the ones like the

1709
01:01:25,910 --> 01:01:23,839
halting problem you know halting theorem

1710
01:01:27,430 --> 01:01:25,920
which is um very closely related to of

1711
01:01:28,470 --> 01:01:27,440
course some girls in completeness

1712
01:01:32,710 --> 01:01:28,480
theorem

1713
01:01:36,230 --> 01:01:32,720
these other things

1714
01:01:42,549 --> 01:01:38,950
really

1715
01:01:44,789 --> 01:01:42,559
i think that the only actual results of

1716
01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:44,799
the only actual

1717
01:01:48,309 --> 01:01:46,319
philosophical advances that have been

1718
01:01:50,710 --> 01:01:48,319
made by humanity

1719
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:50,720
are these kinds of results

1720
01:01:55,430 --> 01:01:53,440
everything else is not only questionable

1721
01:01:57,670 --> 01:01:55,440
um and is being questioned it is

1722
01:01:59,349 --> 01:01:57,680
ultimately going to be quicksand and

1723
01:02:00,950 --> 01:01:59,359
it's just going to be squishy and you're

1724
01:02:02,309 --> 01:02:00,960
not going to get anywhere

1725
01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:02,319
these are the only ones that we have

1726
01:02:05,109 --> 01:02:04,079
managed to generate so far these are it

1727
01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:05,119
folks

1728
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:06,880
by definition they are the deepest

1729
01:02:10,069 --> 01:02:08,160
because they are

1730
01:02:12,109 --> 01:02:10,079
the full set of things that we have

1731
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:12,119
actually established

1732
01:02:17,589 --> 01:02:14,640
incontrovertibly or as incontrovertible

1733
01:02:19,109 --> 01:02:17,599
as any um deductive logic could be for

1734
01:02:21,190 --> 01:02:19,119
mathematics

1735
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:21,200
okay i'm going to send you a chat right

1736
01:02:24,630 --> 01:02:22,960
now let me know if you can pull it up on

1737
01:02:26,470 --> 01:02:24,640
your end or if it automatically gets

1738
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:26,480
sent to you see there

1739
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:28,640
well it's a big one okay yeah yeah okay

1740
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:30,240
so the reason i'm sending it to you is

1741
01:02:34,069 --> 01:02:32,400
because i'm probably going to miss read

1742
01:02:35,670 --> 01:02:34,079
this and it's easier if you read along

1743
01:02:38,069 --> 01:02:35,680
with me oh these are questions from the

1744
01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:38,079
audience yes this is not live obviously

1745
01:02:41,349 --> 01:02:39,760
i'm just saying this is from before so

1746
01:02:42,390 --> 01:02:41,359
this question

1747
01:02:43,750 --> 01:02:42,400
we're now we're getting onto some

1748
01:02:45,510 --> 01:02:43,760
audience questions and this comes from

1749
01:02:47,829 --> 01:02:45,520
chris langan let's get to question

1750
01:02:49,910 --> 01:02:47,839
number two which says he prior to this

1751
01:02:51,910 --> 01:02:49,920
was was referencing how in your

1752
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:51,920
definition of observer there's a

1753
01:02:55,789 --> 01:02:54,000
theological aspect because an observer

1754
01:02:57,990 --> 01:02:55,799
wants to preserve its own

1755
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:58,000
self-organization properties

1756
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:59,520
not required in the definition of

1757
01:03:02,309 --> 01:03:00,559
observer

1758
01:03:05,349 --> 01:03:02,319
it doesn't there's nothing in there

1759
01:03:06,870 --> 01:03:05,359
about what your goal is

1760
01:03:09,029 --> 01:03:06,880
there's nothing in there about

1761
01:03:10,630 --> 01:03:09,039
intentionality in any of the inference

1762
01:03:13,990 --> 01:03:10,640
devices work

1763
01:03:16,230 --> 01:03:14,000
it's just you could be observing by luck

1764
01:03:19,029 --> 01:03:16,240
you're predicted so it includes the case

1765
01:03:20,470 --> 01:03:19,039
where your predictions are correct by

1766
01:03:22,390 --> 01:03:20,480
pure luck

1767
01:03:23,829 --> 01:03:22,400
or maybe even worse you thought that you

1768
01:03:25,910 --> 01:03:23,839
were answering a different question from

1769
01:03:26,950 --> 01:03:25,920
the real one but you were screwed up in

1770
01:03:29,190 --> 01:03:26,960
your thinking you happened to

1771
01:03:31,029 --> 01:03:29,200
accidentally get the answers right well

1772
01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:31,039
no the impossibility results so you

1773
01:03:34,630 --> 01:03:32,720
can't even do it that way

1774
01:03:36,549 --> 01:03:34,640
you can't get there by averted vision so

1775
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:36,559
to speak so there's nothing about um

1776
01:03:41,270 --> 01:03:38,640
what you mean

1777
01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:41,280
for the question to actually be about

1778
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:43,440
then let's do number four your work

1779
01:03:47,589 --> 01:03:45,200
straddles the boundary between mind and

1780
01:03:49,750 --> 01:03:47,599
matter what about cartesian mind slash

1781
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:49,760
matter dualism which says that mind and

1782
01:03:52,950 --> 01:03:51,280
matter are fundamentally different do

1783
01:03:54,549 --> 01:03:52,960
you agree or do you believe they're both

1784
01:03:58,069 --> 01:03:54,559
aspects of

1785
01:04:00,470 --> 01:03:58,079
i don't see there's anything useful to

1786
01:04:02,230 --> 01:04:00,480
be had with the cartesian mind matter

1787
01:04:03,510 --> 01:04:02,240
duelist

1788
01:04:05,349 --> 01:04:03,520
perspective remember what we were

1789
01:04:06,470 --> 01:04:05,359
talking about before about it

1790
01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:06,480
let me just complete the sentence

1791
01:04:10,390 --> 01:04:07,920
because the audience doesn't have access

1792
01:04:11,829 --> 01:04:10,400
so do you agree or do you believe that

1793
01:04:13,349 --> 01:04:11,839
they're both aspects of a single

1794
01:04:15,109 --> 01:04:13,359
underlying reality

1795
01:04:18,870 --> 01:04:15,119
okay i didn't see that second part in

1796
01:04:24,230 --> 01:04:21,029
mind and matter um

1797
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:24,240
okay so it's got to a degree i see um

1798
01:04:29,430 --> 01:04:26,640
it involves a little part a little bit

1799
01:04:31,270 --> 01:04:29,440
where we are in that philosophy house

1800
01:04:33,510 --> 01:04:31,280
and what level we've gone to and i'm

1801
01:04:35,670 --> 01:04:33,520
sitting there with all the assumptions

1802
01:04:37,829 --> 01:04:35,680
about of these sort of what i could very

1803
01:04:39,670 --> 01:04:37,839
loosely and inaccurately describe as

1804
01:04:41,270 --> 01:04:39,680
scientific realism

1805
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:41,280
then there is zero reason to believe

1806
01:04:43,829 --> 01:04:42,640
that there's anything in mind that does

1807
01:04:46,069 --> 01:04:43,839
not matter

1808
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:46,079
and in fact even most even people that i

1809
01:04:49,750 --> 01:04:47,760
think are frankly wrong about many

1810
01:04:51,990 --> 01:04:49,760
things like david chalmers

1811
01:04:55,349 --> 01:04:52,000
worrying about um about consciousness

1812
01:04:56,069 --> 01:04:55,359
means and qualia and sorry penrose as

1813
01:04:58,710 --> 01:04:56,079
well

1814
01:05:02,069 --> 01:04:58,720
mind

1815
01:05:06,829 --> 01:05:02,079
um even these people um uh

1816
01:05:10,069 --> 01:05:08,549
almost

1817
01:05:12,549 --> 01:05:10,079
uniformly

1818
01:05:17,190 --> 01:05:12,559
and almost in total

1819
01:05:19,190 --> 01:05:17,200
um accept that mind is ultimately matter

1820
01:05:21,029 --> 01:05:19,200
um so that

1821
01:05:22,950 --> 01:05:21,039
this is part of why i find qualia to

1822
01:05:24,630 --> 01:05:22,960
ultimately be a vacuous concept is that

1823
01:05:25,990 --> 01:05:24,640
if you do accept that

1824
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:26,000
i don't see whether there really any

1825
01:05:29,029 --> 01:05:27,280
wiggle room

1826
01:05:31,029 --> 01:05:29,039
to worry about well what are your

1827
01:05:32,710 --> 01:05:31,039
subjective impressions then i'll amount

1828
01:05:34,870 --> 01:05:32,720
to which is essentially what the quote

1829
01:05:36,789 --> 01:05:34,880
hard question of conscience is about

1830
01:05:38,950 --> 01:05:36,799
so when i'm sitting up there

1831
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:38,960
in my scientific reel as some room of

1832
01:05:43,510 --> 01:05:40,319
the house

1833
01:05:45,589 --> 01:05:43,520
um a mind is just a um

1834
01:05:47,510 --> 01:05:45,599
attribute of a matter

1835
01:05:50,390 --> 01:05:47,520
for the reasons that hoffman alludes to

1836
01:05:52,150 --> 01:05:50,400
dates um elucidates um dan dennett has

1837
01:05:53,990 --> 01:05:52,160
some great work all the

1838
01:05:56,789 --> 01:05:54,000
zombie within stuff

1839
01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:56,799
um what mind um thinks it knows about

1840
01:06:00,630 --> 01:05:58,720
matter actually is in many many ways

1841
01:06:01,510 --> 01:06:00,640
completely fallacious

1842
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:01,520
um

1843
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:04,480
then when i drill down below that of

1844
01:06:08,470 --> 01:06:05,920
course you start running into things

1845
01:06:10,150 --> 01:06:08,480
like solipsism brain in a vat brain of

1846
01:06:12,390 --> 01:06:10,160
that is a cutesy little thing that

1847
01:06:14,150 --> 01:06:12,400
freshmen debate and has kind of been

1848
01:06:16,549 --> 01:06:14,160
ignored in the academy

1849
01:06:18,630 --> 01:06:16,559
nobody has gotten a answer to that

1850
01:06:20,470 --> 01:06:18,640
challenge because you can't have one

1851
01:06:22,069 --> 01:06:20,480
instead what do you do is you assume

1852
01:06:23,510 --> 01:06:22,079
that no let's assume that we're not a

1853
01:06:25,029 --> 01:06:23,520
brain in a vat

1854
01:06:26,630 --> 01:06:25,039
and that's the basis for most of

1855
01:06:27,510 --> 01:06:26,640
metaphysics because you can't go beyond

1856
01:06:29,109 --> 01:06:27,520
that

1857
01:06:31,589 --> 01:06:29,119
but if you were to

1858
01:06:33,029 --> 01:06:31,599
not make that assumption if you as i

1859
01:06:35,270 --> 01:06:33,039
mentioned before you go through these

1860
01:06:37,190 --> 01:06:35,280
various rooms in the house of philosophy

1861
01:06:39,029 --> 01:06:37,200
by throwing out assumptions

1862
01:06:41,589 --> 01:06:39,039
if you don't make the a priori

1863
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:41,599
assumption that what we are perceiving

1864
01:06:45,670 --> 01:06:43,680
is somehow

1865
01:06:48,150 --> 01:06:45,680
coupled to a reality that we are more

1866
01:06:50,069 --> 01:06:48,160
than a brain in the vat or matrix if you

1867
01:06:51,750 --> 01:06:50,079
wish to view it that way or whatever

1868
01:06:53,990 --> 01:06:51,760
then you're stuck right there and the

1869
01:06:55,670 --> 01:06:54,000
question of is there a duality between

1870
01:06:57,670 --> 01:06:55,680
mind and matter

1871
01:06:59,190 --> 01:06:57,680
um if we're going to allow that i'm a

1872
01:07:01,270 --> 01:06:59,200
brain in a vat

1873
01:07:03,589 --> 01:07:01,280
then um that question takes on

1874
01:07:04,390 --> 01:07:03,599
completely different um aspects to it

1875
01:07:05,750 --> 01:07:04,400
that

1876
01:07:07,510 --> 01:07:05,760
mind

1877
01:07:08,390 --> 01:07:07,520
becomes matter in a different sense and

1878
01:07:12,710 --> 01:07:08,400
you can

1879
01:07:14,150 --> 01:07:12,720
and start saying that well in fact and i

1880
01:07:16,069 --> 01:07:14,160
think this is where ultimately the

1881
01:07:17,589 --> 01:07:16,079
quality of people the heart problem of

1882
01:07:19,270 --> 01:07:17,599
consciousness people are coming from

1883
01:07:21,990 --> 01:07:19,280
that ultimately

1884
01:07:24,309 --> 01:07:22,000
mind comes first and whether there is

1885
01:07:26,789 --> 01:07:24,319
even matter or not

1886
01:07:28,549 --> 01:07:26,799
is a tbd

1887
01:07:30,309 --> 01:07:28,559
or to put it in another way i could

1888
01:07:32,309 --> 01:07:30,319
define a universe in the sense of

1889
01:07:35,029 --> 01:07:32,319
inference devices

1890
01:07:38,150 --> 01:07:35,039
which arguably is only mind

1891
01:07:39,430 --> 01:07:38,160
um and there is no such thing as matter

1892
01:07:41,430 --> 01:07:39,440
so you know once we get down to the

1893
01:07:45,270 --> 01:07:41,440
level of inference devices where a

1894
01:07:46,870 --> 01:07:45,280
universe is just a set of world lines

1895
01:07:49,430 --> 01:07:46,880
essentially we're down at what's called

1896
01:07:51,190 --> 01:07:49,440
sometimes anti-structural realism

1897
01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:51,200
we've actually gone even further than

1898
01:07:56,710 --> 01:07:53,839
max tegmart's multiverses

1899
01:07:58,390 --> 01:07:56,720
and all that any of reality amounts to

1900
01:07:59,589 --> 01:07:58,400
is a

1901
01:08:02,870 --> 01:07:59,599
pattern

1902
01:08:06,710 --> 01:08:02,880
relating aspects of these world lines

1903
01:08:09,029 --> 01:08:06,720
laws of the universe are just patterns

1904
01:08:11,670 --> 01:08:09,039
which could at any time be violated or

1905
01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:11,680
not and once you get to that level

1906
01:08:15,430 --> 01:08:14,000
that's just patterns just mathematics

1907
01:08:17,669 --> 01:08:15,440
that reality

1908
01:08:19,030 --> 01:08:17,679
to a pawn on a chess board is the laws

1909
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:19,040
of chess

1910
01:08:23,269 --> 01:08:21,520
because that's what it's reality is it's

1911
01:08:25,110 --> 01:08:23,279
almost definitional

1912
01:08:26,950 --> 01:08:25,120
then you have no such there is no

1913
01:08:28,709 --> 01:08:26,960
distinction between mind and matter or

1914
01:08:30,709 --> 01:08:28,719
anything else

1915
01:08:32,470 --> 01:08:30,719
it's all just patterns at that level

1916
01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:32,480
there is no distinction the distinction

1917
01:08:37,189 --> 01:08:34,480
between minor matter

1918
01:08:38,709 --> 01:08:37,199
they come to play with you put throw in

1919
01:08:40,470 --> 01:08:38,719
other assumptions

1920
01:08:44,229 --> 01:08:40,480
that put you in other

1921
01:08:47,749 --> 01:08:46,070
so the answer depends where you want to

1922
01:08:49,669 --> 01:08:47,759
situate your self-interest original

1923
01:08:52,309 --> 01:08:49,679
assumptions you adopt

1924
01:08:55,269 --> 01:08:52,319
this question now comes from i just sent

1925
01:08:58,149 --> 01:08:55,279
it this question is carl fristen carl

1926
01:08:59,990 --> 01:08:58,159
fristen of the free energy principle

1927
01:09:01,510 --> 01:09:00,000
it is a compelling notion that systems

1928
01:09:03,430 --> 01:09:01,520
extract information from their

1929
01:09:06,229 --> 01:09:03,440
environment to maintain themselves far

1930
01:09:08,950 --> 01:09:06,239
from equilibrium but is this extraction

1931
01:09:10,630 --> 01:09:08,960
cause or consequence in other words are

1932
01:09:12,789 --> 01:09:10,640
non-equilibrium steady states a

1933
01:09:15,269 --> 01:09:12,799
consequence of observing or making

1934
01:09:17,030 --> 01:09:15,279
inferences about other systems and then

1935
01:09:17,510 --> 01:09:17,040
there's some pulse amble

1936
01:09:18,829 --> 01:09:17,520
um

1937
01:09:22,070 --> 01:09:18,839
[Music]

1938
01:09:24,870 --> 01:09:22,080
so this is touching on a huge body work

1939
01:09:26,470 --> 01:09:24,880
my primary body of research these days

1940
01:09:27,430 --> 01:09:26,480
which we've actually not discussed at

1941
01:09:32,149 --> 01:09:27,440
all

1942
01:09:33,430 --> 01:09:32,159
thermodynamics non-equilibrium

1943
01:09:34,470 --> 01:09:33,440
thermodynamics

1944
01:09:36,950 --> 01:09:34,480
um

1945
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:36,960
carl right there is i think without

1946
01:09:40,309 --> 01:09:38,319
being sure without this actually being a

1947
01:09:42,789 --> 01:09:40,319
proper conversation is he's trying to

1948
01:09:45,590 --> 01:09:42,799
lead me into

1949
01:09:47,269 --> 01:09:45,600
saying things which basically justify

1950
01:09:49,510 --> 01:09:47,279
his notions of having with markov

1951
01:09:50,950 --> 01:09:49,520
blankets and so on and so forth

1952
01:09:53,030 --> 01:09:50,960
um

1953
01:09:55,030 --> 01:09:53,040
instead to make a plug for myself is a

1954
01:09:56,950 --> 01:09:55,040
paper that i wrote with a postdoc artemy

1955
01:09:57,990 --> 01:09:56,960
kolczynski

1956
01:10:00,390 --> 01:09:58,000
um

1957
01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:00,400
with the title has to do with semantic

1958
01:10:07,669 --> 01:10:04,320
information and non-equilibrium physics

1959
01:10:09,350 --> 01:10:07,679
in which we make the case that

1960
01:10:11,830 --> 01:10:09,360
without necessarily wanting to say that

1961
01:10:14,310 --> 01:10:11,840
they are living systems whether they are

1962
01:10:16,870 --> 01:10:14,320
conscious systems in a certain sense

1963
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:16,880
interesting systems are those that are

1964
01:10:19,750 --> 01:10:18,000
what are at what are called

1965
01:10:22,149 --> 01:10:19,760
non-equilibrium steady states which is a

1966
01:10:24,229 --> 01:10:22,159
word that carl is using there

1967
01:10:26,550 --> 01:10:24,239
and that maintain themselves as being

1968
01:10:28,709 --> 01:10:26,560
non-equilibrium steady states

1969
01:10:30,390 --> 01:10:28,719
because of the information that they are

1970
01:10:33,270 --> 01:10:30,400
actually getting from the environment

1971
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:33,280
getting from it in a precise sense of

1972
01:10:37,270 --> 01:10:35,920
conditional information flows

1973
01:10:39,189 --> 01:10:37,280
um

1974
01:10:42,229 --> 01:10:39,199
and i think that those are very

1975
01:10:43,990 --> 01:10:42,239
interesting systems to

1976
01:10:45,830 --> 01:10:44,000
investigate and that's a whole nother

1977
01:10:47,270 --> 01:10:45,840
body of work that i would like to

1978
01:10:50,870 --> 01:10:47,280
investigate

1979
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:50,880
but in terms of which came first

1980
01:10:55,350 --> 01:10:53,040
i'm

1981
01:10:57,510 --> 01:10:55,360
is this extraction cause or consequence

1982
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:57,520
to me it's actually much more

1983
01:11:01,830 --> 01:11:00,000
that there are systems which do have

1984
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:01,840
that extraction

1985
01:11:05,990 --> 01:11:04,080
and i would say it's neither cause nor

1986
01:11:08,229 --> 01:11:06,000
consequence

1987
01:11:10,830 --> 01:11:08,239
um are non-equilibrium steady states a

1988
01:11:13,189 --> 01:11:10,840
consequence of observing other

1989
01:11:15,350 --> 01:11:13,199
systems and physicists can give a very

1990
01:11:16,470 --> 01:11:15,360
simple answer no i can define non-equi

1991
01:11:18,550 --> 01:11:16,480
but enough a way to make a

1992
01:11:20,310 --> 01:11:18,560
non-equilibrium steady state is to

1993
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:20,320
simply hook up a system to two heat

1994
01:11:24,070 --> 01:11:22,320
baths at different temperatures

1995
01:11:25,830 --> 01:11:24,080
and it will go into what is called in

1996
01:11:28,310 --> 01:11:25,840
physics a non-equilibrium steady state

1997
01:11:29,910 --> 01:11:28,320
is observing anything

1998
01:11:31,669 --> 01:11:29,920
you could say it's in a certain sense

1999
01:11:33,189 --> 01:11:31,679
quote observing the two different

2000
01:11:33,990 --> 01:11:33,199
temperatures but

2001
01:11:36,630 --> 01:11:34,000
that

2002
01:11:38,229 --> 01:11:36,640
i think does basically expands the

2003
01:11:40,229 --> 01:11:38,239
definition of the term observed so it

2004
01:11:42,229 --> 01:11:40,239
includes everything

2005
01:11:43,750 --> 01:11:42,239
it is interacting with its external

2006
01:11:46,630 --> 01:11:43,760
world and there are aspects of it that

2007
01:11:50,630 --> 01:11:46,640
are describable by information theory

2008
01:11:52,630 --> 01:11:50,640
and i think to use words like causal or

2009
01:11:55,350 --> 01:11:52,640
um

2010
01:11:57,510 --> 01:11:55,360
observation in that context

2011
01:12:01,830 --> 01:11:57,520
can be a very very fraught thing

2012
01:12:05,270 --> 01:12:01,840
it's in danger of um uh being a deepity

2013
01:12:06,870 --> 01:12:05,280
as dan dennett calls it calls it

2014
01:12:09,669 --> 01:12:06,880
okay this next question comes from

2015
01:12:11,590 --> 01:12:09,679
professor anil seth of neuroscience

2016
01:12:13,669 --> 01:12:11,600
and he has a book out on consciousness

2017
01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:13,679
which i'll link in the description he

2018
01:12:17,030 --> 01:12:15,360
says ask david whether he thinks

2019
01:12:17,750 --> 01:12:17,040
consciousness is substrate independent

2020
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:17,760
so

2021
01:12:22,229 --> 01:12:19,840
a silicone computer can be in principle

2022
01:12:24,310 --> 01:12:22,239
conscious and if so why and then as a

2023
01:12:27,110 --> 01:12:24,320
sub note with regard to free will i'm

2024
01:12:30,149 --> 01:12:27,120
always interested if they referring to

2025
01:12:32,149 --> 01:12:30,159
you david and anyone else if you david

2026
01:12:35,030 --> 01:12:32,159
realizes that the determinism versus

2027
01:12:38,149 --> 01:12:35,040
stochastic debate is a total red herring

2028
01:12:39,590 --> 01:12:38,159
um well uh okay let me

2029
01:12:43,110 --> 01:12:39,600
respond to these

2030
01:12:45,030 --> 01:12:43,120
in order i once asked um

2031
01:12:47,350 --> 01:12:45,040
julio tinoni

2032
01:12:50,550 --> 01:12:47,360
um according to his integrated conscious

2033
01:12:53,910 --> 01:12:50,560
is integrated information measure

2034
01:12:54,709 --> 01:12:53,920
which i am not a fan of let me say that

2035
01:12:56,630 --> 01:12:54,719
um

2036
01:12:58,950 --> 01:12:56,640
but in any case scott anderson is not

2037
01:13:03,189 --> 01:12:58,960
either and so he's got a blog post on it

2038
01:13:06,950 --> 01:13:03,199
um but uh according to his measure

2039
01:13:09,030 --> 01:13:06,960
a computer a silicon computer

2040
01:13:11,669 --> 01:13:09,040
whether it implements its code in

2041
01:13:13,669 --> 01:13:11,679
parallel or in serial

2042
01:13:15,430 --> 01:13:13,679
determines whether it's conscious or not

2043
01:13:16,550 --> 01:13:15,440
i asked him that point blank and he said

2044
01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:16,560
yes that determines whether it's

2045
01:13:21,430 --> 01:13:18,640
conscious or not

2046
01:13:26,310 --> 01:13:24,630
i'm first um responding to that aspect

2047
01:13:28,630 --> 01:13:26,320
of my conversation with julio before

2048
01:13:30,149 --> 01:13:28,640
getting to a neil um by the way i do

2049
01:13:31,350 --> 01:13:30,159
think anneal does some very interesting

2050
01:13:34,310 --> 01:13:31,360
work um

2051
01:13:37,270 --> 01:13:34,320
but so my reaction to that is

2052
01:13:39,270 --> 01:13:37,280
what is gained by defining

2053
01:13:41,030 --> 01:13:39,280
you can define words or if you want to

2054
01:13:42,390 --> 01:13:41,040
define it that's one of the liberties of

2055
01:13:43,990 --> 01:13:42,400
mathematics is to find things wherever

2056
01:13:46,149 --> 01:13:44,000
you want

2057
01:13:47,750 --> 01:13:46,159
and you could define it so that julio

2058
01:13:50,229 --> 01:13:47,760
could say i am by definition correct

2059
01:13:52,630 --> 01:13:50,239
that this is consciousness my measure

2060
01:13:54,070 --> 01:13:52,640
that's okay you can you can say that and

2061
01:13:55,110 --> 01:13:54,080
um if that's your definition that's your

2062
01:13:56,390 --> 01:13:55,120
definition

2063
01:14:00,229 --> 01:13:56,400
but getting back to what we were talking

2064
01:14:02,229 --> 01:14:00,239
about last time persuasive definitions

2065
01:14:03,750 --> 01:14:02,239
this also gets back to cyril with his

2066
01:14:05,510 --> 01:14:03,760
chinese roon argument which i thought

2067
01:14:06,550 --> 01:14:05,520
was completely vacuous

2068
01:14:08,390 --> 01:14:06,560
um

2069
01:14:11,430 --> 01:14:08,400
if you are to whatever if you are to

2070
01:14:16,470 --> 01:14:11,440
give a definition of consciousness

2071
01:14:16,480 --> 01:14:20,790
any aspects to it which

2072
01:14:24,870 --> 01:14:22,950
if it is going to be restricted to being

2073
01:14:26,630 --> 01:14:24,880
a characteristic of the behavior of a

2074
01:14:30,149 --> 01:14:26,640
system

2075
01:14:32,070 --> 01:14:30,159
of the what rather than the how

2076
01:14:34,790 --> 01:14:32,080
then it cannot

2077
01:14:37,189 --> 01:14:34,800
differ for a serial or parallel computer

2078
01:14:39,270 --> 01:14:37,199
and that's what cyril also missed

2079
01:14:40,790 --> 01:14:39,280
if consciousness if thinking whatever

2080
01:14:43,110 --> 01:14:40,800
you want to call it

2081
01:14:45,110 --> 01:14:43,120
is a what rather than how

2082
01:14:47,430 --> 01:14:45,120
and i think it's extremely liberty

2083
01:14:48,470 --> 01:14:47,440
liberating as a scientist to conceive of

2084
01:14:50,070 --> 01:14:48,480
it that way

2085
01:14:53,270 --> 01:14:50,080
then it doesn't matter by definition you

2086
01:14:55,110 --> 01:14:53,280
just said no the how is interesting

2087
01:14:57,590 --> 01:14:55,120
is worthy of study but it's a different

2088
01:14:59,110 --> 01:14:57,600
question entirely from the what

2089
01:15:02,070 --> 01:14:59,120
and how these are and these should be

2090
01:15:04,630 --> 01:15:02,080
disentangled it is a category error to

2091
01:15:06,070 --> 01:15:04,640
mistake the how for the what am i to

2092
01:15:07,830 --> 01:15:06,080
understand that another way of saying

2093
01:15:09,510 --> 01:15:07,840
that is that if it's a state versus a

2094
01:15:11,430 --> 01:15:09,520
process

2095
01:15:13,030 --> 01:15:11,440
oh no is that is that false what i just

2096
01:15:14,950 --> 01:15:13,040
said like that's not the correct analogy

2097
01:15:16,870 --> 01:15:14,960
that's not what i mean to say

2098
01:15:19,590 --> 01:15:16,880
you right now

2099
01:15:22,790 --> 01:15:19,600
if behind those

2100
01:15:26,470 --> 01:15:22,800
baby brown eyes if behind your face

2101
01:15:29,350 --> 01:15:26,480
were a silicon computer

2102
01:15:31,110 --> 01:15:29,360
that has no consequence to the behavior

2103
01:15:31,910 --> 01:15:31,120
of our discussion that's what touring's

2104
01:15:34,470 --> 01:15:31,920
great

2105
01:15:36,149 --> 01:15:34,480
insight with the turing test is

2106
01:15:37,830 --> 01:15:36,159
and the importance of the turing test is

2107
01:15:39,189 --> 01:15:37,840
not whether you're using a teletype and

2108
01:15:41,350 --> 01:15:39,199
things like that

2109
01:15:43,030 --> 01:15:41,360
is to say that as far as he

2110
01:15:45,350 --> 01:15:43,040
um alan turing was concerned and there's

2111
01:15:47,350 --> 01:15:45,360
a lot to be said for this that is useful

2112
01:15:49,270 --> 01:15:47,360
to carve out from whatever you discuss

2113
01:15:52,390 --> 01:15:49,280
whenever you just want to discuss about

2114
01:15:53,189 --> 01:15:52,400
consciousness it is very useful to carve

2115
01:15:54,790 --> 01:15:53,199
out

2116
01:15:56,550 --> 01:15:54,800
as its own

2117
01:15:58,550 --> 01:15:56,560
phenomenon

2118
01:16:00,550 --> 01:15:58,560
call it consciousness prime call it

2119
01:16:02,390 --> 01:16:00,560
precon whatever you want to be

2120
01:16:04,149 --> 01:16:02,400
where we're just looking at the behavior

2121
01:16:06,950 --> 01:16:04,159
of the system

2122
01:16:10,709 --> 01:16:06,960
and you can have things ones in silicon

2123
01:16:13,910 --> 01:16:10,719
one is instead a real human being

2124
01:16:16,470 --> 01:16:13,920
one is instead a simulacrum that's being

2125
01:16:18,229 --> 01:16:16,480
controlled by somebody outside the room

2126
01:16:20,070 --> 01:16:18,239
looking in wherever you want

2127
01:16:21,350 --> 01:16:20,080
that's behaving that same way but if

2128
01:16:23,189 --> 01:16:21,360
it's behaving the same way you can't

2129
01:16:25,510 --> 01:16:23,199
tell the difference

2130
01:16:28,229 --> 01:16:25,520
and so for this

2131
01:16:30,229 --> 01:16:28,239
particular aspect of consciousness

2132
01:16:32,550 --> 01:16:30,239
it does not make any difference

2133
01:16:34,709 --> 01:16:32,560
so the tanoni is actually looking at the

2134
01:16:36,790 --> 01:16:34,719
other side he's focusing it's kind of

2135
01:16:39,110 --> 01:16:36,800
he's mixing up the two i would say

2136
01:16:39,990 --> 01:16:39,120
the how and the want

2137
01:16:41,669 --> 01:16:40,000
um

2138
01:16:43,030 --> 01:16:41,679
so to me the interesting thing is the

2139
01:16:45,669 --> 01:16:43,040
what

2140
01:16:48,310 --> 01:16:45,679
you first have that then once we have

2141
01:16:49,830 --> 01:16:48,320
that what clarified which we don't have

2142
01:16:51,430 --> 01:16:49,840
we don't know how to define even at a

2143
01:16:52,790 --> 01:16:51,440
behavioral level what the conscious

2144
01:16:54,790 --> 01:16:52,800
entity would be

2145
01:16:56,229 --> 01:16:54,800
or so on and so forth we can then start

2146
01:16:57,910 --> 01:16:56,239
to look at the how

2147
01:16:59,510 --> 01:16:57,920
and that's where neurobiology comes to

2148
01:17:00,870 --> 01:16:59,520
play which is anil's

2149
01:17:03,590 --> 01:17:00,880
particular

2150
01:17:05,669 --> 01:17:03,600
comparative advantage his specialty

2151
01:17:08,470 --> 01:17:05,679
and that's a completely open issue

2152
01:17:09,350 --> 01:17:08,480
frankly as and one that he's doing work

2153
01:17:11,110 --> 01:17:09,360
on

2154
01:17:13,030 --> 01:17:11,120
um involving things like predictive

2155
01:17:15,189 --> 01:17:13,040
coding blah blah blah blah is how do

2156
01:17:16,950 --> 01:17:15,199
neurobiological systems achieve it

2157
01:17:19,910 --> 01:17:16,960
silicon computers can achieve the same

2158
01:17:21,750 --> 01:17:19,920
what they're doing in a different way

2159
01:17:23,430 --> 01:17:21,760
and so it's a different question

2160
01:17:25,189 --> 01:17:23,440
then with regard to free will i'm always

2161
01:17:27,270 --> 01:17:25,199
interested in whether dota taught

2162
01:17:29,189 --> 01:17:27,280
whether they think that whether they

2163
01:17:30,550 --> 01:17:29,199
think slash realized so that's obviously

2164
01:17:31,669 --> 01:17:30,560
a limited question

2165
01:17:33,590 --> 01:17:31,679
that the determinism versus

2166
01:17:34,709 --> 01:17:33,600
stochasticity debate is a total red

2167
01:17:39,430 --> 01:17:34,719
herring

2168
01:17:40,630 --> 01:17:39,440
that's a extremely loaded leading

2169
01:17:42,229 --> 01:17:40,640
question

2170
01:17:44,550 --> 01:17:42,239
and i'm going to assume that it does

2171
01:17:47,270 --> 01:17:44,560
have that character because of uh

2172
01:17:49,270 --> 01:17:47,280
basically word length so to speak a

2173
01:17:51,189 --> 01:17:49,280
total red herring for what

2174
01:17:53,750 --> 01:17:51,199
um and

2175
01:17:56,070 --> 01:17:53,760
it's a question that cannot be answered

2176
01:17:57,669 --> 01:17:56,080
i would say that free will is commonly

2177
01:17:59,110 --> 01:17:57,679
used in common discourse is what we're

2178
01:18:00,390 --> 01:17:59,120
talking about yesterday persuasive

2179
01:18:02,870 --> 01:18:00,400
definitions

2180
01:18:04,630 --> 01:18:02,880
not yesterday but last time yes people

2181
01:18:06,149 --> 01:18:04,640
commonly use free will they're not even

2182
01:18:08,149 --> 01:18:06,159
sure what they mean

2183
01:18:11,030 --> 01:18:08,159
that some people to some people it is

2184
01:18:13,990 --> 01:18:11,040
determinism versus stochasticity

2185
01:18:15,750 --> 01:18:14,000
um and that's what they mean that that's

2186
01:18:17,910 --> 01:18:15,760
what they mean to other people it's not

2187
01:18:19,430 --> 01:18:17,920
whether it's a total red herring has to

2188
01:18:20,950 --> 01:18:19,440
do with how you define the concept in

2189
01:18:23,030 --> 01:18:20,960
the first place

2190
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:23,040
i don't view there as being a concept

2191
01:18:26,390 --> 01:18:24,480
worth discussion

2192
01:18:27,990 --> 01:18:26,400
i free view as being pointless come up

2193
01:18:29,750 --> 01:18:28,000
with your definition

2194
01:18:31,189 --> 01:18:29,760
your definition is going to then say

2195
01:18:33,590 --> 01:18:31,199
whatever you want your definition to

2196
01:18:35,030 --> 01:18:33,600
mean but it's your definition that's why

2197
01:18:36,470 --> 01:18:35,040
i'm saying we should call it what

2198
01:18:37,669 --> 01:18:36,480
consciousness rather than how

2199
01:18:39,110 --> 01:18:37,679
consciousness

2200
01:18:40,550 --> 01:18:39,120
just so we're clear in our definitions

2201
01:18:42,070 --> 01:18:40,560
i'm not going to say either one is

2202
01:18:43,350 --> 01:18:42,080
consciousness

2203
01:18:44,870 --> 01:18:43,360
i'm going to instead just make two

2204
01:18:46,950 --> 01:18:44,880
different definitions and say that when

2205
01:18:48,870 --> 01:18:46,960
people use the word consciousness they

2206
01:18:51,030 --> 01:18:48,880
sometimes conflate things

2207
01:18:53,110 --> 01:18:51,040
and free will is far more prone to that

2208
01:18:54,630 --> 01:18:53,120
when people use the word free will

2209
01:18:56,310 --> 01:18:54,640
there's actually many many flavors they

2210
01:18:57,590 --> 01:18:56,320
mean very many different things and they

2211
01:18:59,990 --> 01:18:57,600
are ultimately fighting about whose

2212
01:19:02,070 --> 01:19:00,000
arbitrary definition to use and that is

2213
01:19:03,590 --> 01:19:02,080
an exercise in futility set your

2214
01:19:06,830 --> 01:19:03,600
arbitrary definition and then we can

2215
01:19:09,669 --> 01:19:06,840
maybe or maybe not say something

2216
01:19:11,189 --> 01:19:09,679
um so in any case

2217
01:19:12,310 --> 01:19:11,199
it sounds like this question sets you

2218
01:19:14,229 --> 01:19:12,320
off

2219
01:19:15,510 --> 01:19:14,239
well it does because it's such a waste

2220
01:19:17,590 --> 01:19:15,520
of time

2221
01:19:19,590 --> 01:19:17,600
it's only it's people are debating

2222
01:19:20,709 --> 01:19:19,600
definitions

2223
01:19:22,870 --> 01:19:20,719
i don't

2224
01:19:25,030 --> 01:19:22,880
life's too short folks

2225
01:19:27,510 --> 01:19:25,040
define things wherever you want just be

2226
01:19:29,189 --> 01:19:27,520
clear what it is you are defining

2227
01:19:31,110 --> 01:19:29,199
and once we have the definition and we

2228
01:19:34,310 --> 01:19:31,120
don't have any

2229
01:19:35,990 --> 01:19:34,320
definitions have no import by themselves

2230
01:19:38,229 --> 01:19:36,000
it's only things we can conclude

2231
01:19:40,790 --> 01:19:38,239
starting from the definitions

2232
01:19:42,550 --> 01:19:40,800
make your definitions feel free just be

2233
01:19:43,910 --> 01:19:42,560
very clear what your definitions are and

2234
01:19:46,149 --> 01:19:43,920
then after that there might be some

2235
01:19:48,950 --> 01:19:46,159
interesting consequences to

2236
01:19:51,270 --> 01:19:48,960
um investigate but to have fights about

2237
01:19:52,870 --> 01:19:51,280
definitions is preposterous

2238
01:19:54,310 --> 01:19:52,880
and that's what a lot of these

2239
01:19:55,990 --> 01:19:54,320
fights really are about is just

2240
01:19:58,550 --> 01:19:56,000
definition pushing

2241
01:20:00,310 --> 01:19:58,560
let me steal man the definition i up to

2242
01:20:01,430 --> 01:20:00,320
just a few months ago i'm on board with

2243
01:20:03,270 --> 01:20:01,440
you 100

2244
01:20:05,110 --> 01:20:03,280
now let me steal man the definitions

2245
01:20:07,350 --> 01:20:05,120
point of view i was speaking to

2246
01:20:09,510 --> 01:20:07,360
professor jorah barnatan of mathematics

2247
01:20:11,350 --> 01:20:09,520
in toronto here and he was saying i was

2248
01:20:13,030 --> 01:20:11,360
asking him can you also in preparation

2249
01:20:14,550 --> 01:20:13,040
for our interview tell me which proofs

2250
01:20:16,229 --> 01:20:14,560
which theorems are your favorite and

2251
01:20:17,990 --> 01:20:16,239
then he responded and said he doesn't

2252
01:20:20,149 --> 01:20:18,000
like proofs and theorems and what

2253
01:20:21,910 --> 01:20:20,159
standard textbooks focus on he actually

2254
01:20:24,070 --> 01:20:21,920
thinks perhaps definitions are more

2255
01:20:25,350 --> 01:20:24,080
important or perhaps techniques

2256
01:20:27,990 --> 01:20:25,360
i thought you might be going there but

2257
01:20:29,430 --> 01:20:28,000
here's what i think he actually meant

2258
01:20:33,669 --> 01:20:29,440
he thought that coming up with

2259
01:20:36,310 --> 01:20:33,679
definitions that lead to a very rich set

2260
01:20:39,590 --> 01:20:36,320
of theorems and proofs that that is the

2261
01:20:41,669 --> 01:20:39,600
key to being i mean here is my putting

2262
01:20:43,430 --> 01:20:41,679
words in his mouth to being a successful

2263
01:20:45,830 --> 01:20:43,440
and important and do important work in

2264
01:20:49,990 --> 01:20:45,840
mathematics is to first come up with the

2265
01:20:51,750 --> 01:20:50,000
very fruitful definitions i fully agree

2266
01:20:53,350 --> 01:20:51,760
that but that is not what people who are

2267
01:20:55,430 --> 01:20:53,360
arguing about free will are arguing

2268
01:20:57,350 --> 01:20:55,440
about they're not saying for which

2269
01:20:59,030 --> 01:20:57,360
definition of free will

2270
01:21:01,189 --> 01:20:59,040
and he wasn't actually either your

2271
01:21:02,629 --> 01:21:01,199
professor he wasn't saying which

2272
01:21:03,669 --> 01:21:02,639
definition

2273
01:21:05,270 --> 01:21:03,679
of

2274
01:21:06,790 --> 01:21:05,280
um parallel

2275
01:21:08,870 --> 01:21:06,800
should i adopt

2276
01:21:11,030 --> 01:21:08,880
he was saying no what's important is if

2277
01:21:12,470 --> 01:21:11,040
i put together the words in a certain

2278
01:21:14,070 --> 01:21:12,480
way

2279
01:21:15,750 --> 01:21:14,080
and then i call them what i call them

2280
01:21:17,430 --> 01:21:15,760
doesn't matter

2281
01:21:20,390 --> 01:21:17,440
but those set of words put together in

2282
01:21:23,189 --> 01:21:20,400
this way we'll call it a alpha b beta

2283
01:21:25,590 --> 01:21:23,199
we've just defined a alpha b beta if i

2284
01:21:27,830 --> 01:21:25,600
can use a alpha b beta to prove a whole

2285
01:21:29,030 --> 01:21:27,840
bunch of fruitful things that's a good

2286
01:21:31,350 --> 01:21:29,040
definition

2287
01:21:34,310 --> 01:21:31,360
these people instead are saying what

2288
01:21:36,229 --> 01:21:34,320
should a alpha b beta mean

2289
01:21:39,430 --> 01:21:36,239
which is backwards

2290
01:21:41,910 --> 01:21:39,440
so that professor um he was saying that

2291
01:21:44,149 --> 01:21:41,920
it's not the words it's not the clothes

2292
01:21:46,070 --> 01:21:44,159
don't make the man it's not the words

2293
01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:46,080
that you're draping this with that

2294
01:21:50,470 --> 01:21:48,480
matter is whatever this is

2295
01:21:53,189 --> 01:21:50,480
and here people are saying well i've got

2296
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:53,199
my words first and i'm gonna fight with

2297
01:21:59,110 --> 01:21:56,159
you about whether um they actually mean

2298
01:22:02,310 --> 01:21:59,120
this or they mean that

2299
01:22:04,310 --> 01:22:02,320
it's it's useless it's it's backwards

2300
01:22:06,950 --> 01:22:04,320
it's not only anti-scientific i would

2301
01:22:08,310 --> 01:22:06,960
say it's anti-intellectual almost

2302
01:22:09,590 --> 01:22:08,320
now for the sake of playing the devil's

2303
01:22:10,390 --> 01:22:09,600
advocate let me know what you think

2304
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:10,400
about this

2305
01:22:12,470 --> 01:22:11,440
now when we're not talking about

2306
01:22:14,870 --> 01:22:12,480
mathematics something that's

2307
01:22:16,390 --> 01:22:14,880
specifically well defined when we come

2308
01:22:18,550 --> 01:22:16,400
up with a definition

2309
01:22:20,950 --> 01:22:18,560
it works somewhat akin to this we have

2310
01:22:23,590 --> 01:22:20,960
an intuitive notion of some concept and

2311
01:22:25,669 --> 01:22:23,600
it's ambiguous and then we give it a

2312
01:22:26,870 --> 01:22:25,679
name and we usually give it a name by

2313
01:22:29,270 --> 01:22:26,880
pointing to different objects that

2314
01:22:31,189 --> 01:22:29,280
satisfy what we think is that intuitive

2315
01:22:32,629 --> 01:22:31,199
definition so for example with life

2316
01:22:34,950 --> 01:22:32,639
we'll say the couch behind you is not

2317
01:22:36,709 --> 01:22:34,960
alive you're alive the beetle is alive

2318
01:22:38,709 --> 01:22:36,719
the fire is alive

2319
01:22:40,629 --> 01:22:38,719
let's say minus 3000 years ago and then

2320
01:22:42,229 --> 01:22:40,639
there's other people arguing about that

2321
01:22:44,070 --> 01:22:42,239
well the fire is not alive but i do

2322
01:22:45,910 --> 01:22:44,080
agree david is alive and i also agree

2323
01:22:49,270 --> 01:22:45,920
that the couch is not alive so we have

2324
01:22:51,270 --> 01:22:49,280
these volutinous feelings of amorphous

2325
01:22:53,350 --> 01:22:51,280
balls and we're trying to see okay well

2326
01:22:55,110 --> 01:22:53,360
what's the intersection between us which

2327
01:22:56,950 --> 01:22:55,120
one captures what we're trying to say

2328
01:22:57,990 --> 01:22:56,960
most which one captures the most

2329
01:23:00,149 --> 01:22:58,000
relevant

2330
01:23:01,590 --> 01:23:00,159
concepts so that's why there are

2331
01:23:03,270 --> 01:23:01,600
disagreements about the definition we're

2332
01:23:05,990 --> 01:23:03,280
trying to figure out we're arguing about

2333
01:23:08,470 --> 01:23:06,000
what the entries in the oed should be

2334
01:23:09,830 --> 01:23:08,480
there's an entry in the oed for life and

2335
01:23:11,030 --> 01:23:09,840
what should it be the oxford english

2336
01:23:13,430 --> 01:23:11,040
dictionary

2337
01:23:14,870 --> 01:23:13,440
and so for example on that particular

2338
01:23:15,669 --> 01:23:14,880
topic

2339
01:23:19,430 --> 01:23:15,679
um

2340
01:23:21,590 --> 01:23:19,440
people do define life as a bit

2341
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:21,600
and i always and the question is well

2342
01:23:24,470 --> 01:23:22,960
how should i define that bit if they

2343
01:23:26,310 --> 01:23:24,480
want it to always be it's alive or it's

2344
01:23:27,750 --> 01:23:26,320
not alive what's how do we define what

2345
01:23:29,830 --> 01:23:27,760
one or the other means

2346
01:23:31,189 --> 01:23:29,840
so this is a other work of mine earlier

2347
01:23:32,870 --> 01:23:31,199
in my career i did with a fellow called

2348
01:23:35,510 --> 01:23:32,880
bill mccrady and others have picked it

2349
01:23:36,709 --> 01:23:35,520
up since um

2350
01:23:38,790 --> 01:23:36,719
so

2351
01:23:40,870 --> 01:23:38,800
my reaction to that was that this is

2352
01:23:42,790 --> 01:23:40,880
silly definition plugging come up with

2353
01:23:45,189 --> 01:23:42,800
your definition and whatever to say

2354
01:23:47,030 --> 01:23:45,199
something israel is not alive is silly

2355
01:23:49,270 --> 01:23:47,040
um at a minimum if you're talking about

2356
01:23:51,830 --> 01:23:49,280
biological organisms

2357
01:23:53,669 --> 01:23:51,840
it's not going to be just a single bit

2358
01:23:55,350 --> 01:23:53,679
it's going to be actually at least a

2359
01:23:57,030 --> 01:23:55,360
real number and well actually it's going

2360
01:23:58,390 --> 01:23:57,040
to be a vector we'll actually know it's

2361
01:23:59,910 --> 01:23:58,400
going to be some much more higher

2362
01:24:02,229 --> 01:23:59,920
dimensional thing

2363
01:24:04,229 --> 01:24:02,239
it's not going to be life is a bit

2364
01:24:07,189 --> 01:24:04,239
clever life is some

2365
01:24:08,709 --> 01:24:07,199
other mathematical structure and here's

2366
01:24:09,750 --> 01:24:08,719
one that we happen to come up with that

2367
01:24:11,590 --> 01:24:09,760
actually turned out to be somewhat

2368
01:24:13,350 --> 01:24:11,600
fruitful another topic of research i

2369
01:24:17,110 --> 01:24:13,360
wanted to work with

2370
01:24:19,830 --> 01:24:17,120
you know what a fractal is i assume okay

2371
01:24:21,189 --> 01:24:19,840
so i take the m the magnifying glass and

2372
01:24:22,870 --> 01:24:21,199
i magnify that microscope and i keep

2373
01:24:24,550 --> 01:24:22,880
seeing the same thing

2374
01:24:25,830 --> 01:24:24,560
let's take that magnifying glass that

2375
01:24:29,030 --> 01:24:25,840
microscope

2376
01:24:31,669 --> 01:24:29,040
put it on your skin

2377
01:24:33,510 --> 01:24:31,679
as we keep running up the power

2378
01:24:35,669 --> 01:24:33,520
we go down to the level where we're

2379
01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:35,679
seeing now individual cells now we start

2380
01:24:38,870 --> 01:24:37,760
going with you know within the cells and

2381
01:24:40,790 --> 01:24:38,880
so on

2382
01:24:44,550 --> 01:24:40,800
the images in that

2383
01:24:47,270 --> 01:24:44,560
microscope keep changing

2384
01:24:48,709 --> 01:24:47,280
you are not self-similar you are self

2385
01:24:51,350 --> 01:24:48,719
dissimilar

2386
01:24:55,270 --> 01:24:51,360
the patterns in you are very different

2387
01:24:56,390 --> 01:24:55,280
from one another at each different scale

2388
01:24:58,950 --> 01:24:56,400
in fact

2389
01:25:01,350 --> 01:24:58,960
that seems to be true of almost all

2390
01:25:04,470 --> 01:25:01,360
systems that are alive

2391
01:25:07,669 --> 01:25:04,480
it is not true of almost all systems

2392
01:25:13,590 --> 01:25:10,629
moreover this self-dissimilarity is a

2393
01:25:16,229 --> 01:25:13,600
way to give nuance and structure

2394
01:25:17,830 --> 01:25:16,239
to the form of the life

2395
01:25:20,070 --> 01:25:17,840
because you can actually be looking at

2396
01:25:22,149 --> 01:25:20,080
how is it that the patterns of at each

2397
01:25:24,550 --> 01:25:22,159
scale are related to one another you've

2398
01:25:25,790 --> 01:25:24,560
got an entire matrix

2399
01:25:28,550 --> 01:25:25,800
and so this we called it

2400
01:25:30,709 --> 01:25:28,560
self-dissimilarity and we were very

2401
01:25:32,790 --> 01:25:30,719
careful not to say it's living or not

2402
01:25:34,709 --> 01:25:32,800
and we simply say actually i think we

2403
01:25:36,229 --> 01:25:34,719
reverse this effect

2404
01:25:37,870 --> 01:25:36,239
any system that does have

2405
01:25:39,430 --> 01:25:37,880
self-dissimilarity high

2406
01:25:41,669 --> 01:25:39,440
self-dissimilarity

2407
01:25:42,950 --> 01:25:41,679
is almost by definition going to be very

2408
01:25:44,709 --> 01:25:42,960
interesting

2409
01:25:47,430 --> 01:25:44,719
and some people might say it's actually

2410
01:25:48,870 --> 01:25:47,440
a complex system but we again we don't

2411
01:25:51,030 --> 01:25:48,880
want to be

2412
01:25:52,189 --> 01:25:51,040
selling it with these definitions we're

2413
01:25:53,750 --> 01:25:52,199
just going to simply say it's

2414
01:25:55,590 --> 01:25:53,760
self-dissimilarity

2415
01:25:57,510 --> 01:25:55,600
we put it out there as a proposal to the

2416
01:25:59,350 --> 01:25:57,520
research community that they shouldn't

2417
01:26:01,590 --> 01:25:59,360
be spending all this effort in trying to

2418
01:26:04,149 --> 01:26:01,600
figure out what should the definition of

2419
01:26:06,310 --> 01:26:04,159
this bit living or not living be

2420
01:26:08,149 --> 01:26:06,320
that that's fruitless and it's just

2421
01:26:10,550 --> 01:26:08,159
going to be in terminable wars that

2422
01:26:12,470 --> 01:26:10,560
never are going to end up

2423
01:26:13,990 --> 01:26:12,480
being rich in the sense of definitions

2424
01:26:14,950 --> 01:26:14,000
that your mathematics professor was

2425
01:26:20,950 --> 01:26:14,960
thinking

2426
01:26:22,629 --> 01:26:20,960
self-dissimilarity of different systems

2427
01:26:24,470 --> 01:26:22,639
because why would you think that an

2428
01:26:26,550 --> 01:26:24,480
interesting living system might be

2429
01:26:27,750 --> 01:26:26,560
self-dissimilar in the first place so

2430
01:26:29,350 --> 01:26:27,760
it's not just that we can notice

2431
01:26:30,750 --> 01:26:29,360
phenomenologically

2432
01:26:32,709 --> 01:26:30,760
that living systems are all

2433
01:26:34,709 --> 01:26:32,719
self-dissimilar whereas non-living

2434
01:26:38,149 --> 01:26:34,719
systems like mountaintops and so on are

2435
01:26:39,830 --> 01:26:38,159
so similar we can actually ask why might

2436
01:26:41,910 --> 01:26:39,840
that be the case

2437
01:26:44,790 --> 01:26:41,920
and so here's a

2438
01:26:46,709 --> 01:26:44,800
interesting proposal that i have not yet

2439
01:26:49,110 --> 01:26:46,719
time to investigate

2440
01:26:50,790 --> 01:26:49,120
what if biological systems this is

2441
01:26:53,830 --> 01:26:50,800
somewhat along the lines of the things

2442
01:26:56,149 --> 01:26:53,840
that carl fussing is interested in

2443
01:26:59,350 --> 01:26:56,159
what if biological systems

2444
01:27:01,430 --> 01:26:59,360
had to as a for for um and also for that

2445
01:27:04,070 --> 01:27:01,440
mayor donald hoffman had to as an

2446
01:27:07,110 --> 01:27:04,080
evolutionary imperative

2447
01:27:10,470 --> 01:27:07,120
extract the maximal computational bang

2448
01:27:12,229 --> 01:27:10,480
out of a given physical body buck

2449
01:27:14,790 --> 01:27:12,239
how might they do that well one thing

2450
01:27:16,629 --> 01:27:14,800
you can think of doing is distribute

2451
01:27:20,390 --> 01:27:16,639
different parts of that computation to

2452
01:27:22,470 --> 01:27:20,400
different spatial locations in that body

2453
01:27:24,390 --> 01:27:22,480
and that's what systems do biological

2454
01:27:25,750 --> 01:27:24,400
systems to a large degree they have the

2455
01:27:28,070 --> 01:27:25,760
computations that are going on your

2456
01:27:30,149 --> 01:27:28,080
brain being a different part of you from

2457
01:27:32,790 --> 01:27:30,159
the computations that are going on

2458
01:27:34,870 --> 01:27:32,800
in your kidney for example you've been

2459
01:27:36,550 --> 01:27:34,880
um the computation's been distributed

2460
01:27:38,149 --> 01:27:36,560
but you might also not only want to

2461
01:27:39,590 --> 01:27:38,159
distribute the computation across

2462
01:27:42,310 --> 01:27:39,600
different positions

2463
01:27:43,910 --> 01:27:42,320
but also across scales

2464
01:27:45,030 --> 01:27:43,920
there might be different and there are

2465
01:27:47,189 --> 01:27:45,040
if you think about it different

2466
01:27:48,229 --> 01:27:47,199
computations being done by the cells in

2467
01:27:49,830 --> 01:27:48,239
you

2468
01:27:51,990 --> 01:27:49,840
compared to the computations being done

2469
01:27:54,070 --> 01:27:52,000
by the organs in you

2470
01:27:55,910 --> 01:27:54,080
moreover these computations being done

2471
01:27:58,390 --> 01:27:55,920
at the different scales are actually

2472
01:28:00,229 --> 01:27:58,400
communicating with one another

2473
01:28:02,550 --> 01:28:00,239
so you can imagine that as an

2474
01:28:04,390 --> 01:28:02,560
evolutionary imperative biological

2475
01:28:06,550 --> 01:28:04,400
systems would be driven

2476
01:28:08,310 --> 01:28:06,560
to want to distribute the computations

2477
01:28:10,390 --> 01:28:08,320
that they do

2478
01:28:12,229 --> 01:28:10,400
across their different scales as well as

2479
01:28:14,629 --> 01:28:12,239
their different spatial position part

2480
01:28:15,990 --> 01:28:14,639
positions within them which would then

2481
01:28:17,590 --> 01:28:16,000
lead us to start to think about what

2482
01:28:19,590 --> 01:28:17,600
does it even mean

2483
01:28:21,110 --> 01:28:19,600
to distribute computation across scales

2484
01:28:22,070 --> 01:28:21,120
what are the general features of such

2485
01:28:23,510 --> 01:28:22,080
systems

2486
01:28:26,310 --> 01:28:23,520
and it would lead you down a research

2487
01:28:27,669 --> 01:28:26,320
path which i've not had time to go

2488
01:28:30,629 --> 01:28:27,679
but it would lead you down a fruitful

2489
01:28:36,149 --> 01:28:30,639
greek church path to in fact

2490
01:28:37,430 --> 01:28:36,159
um uh refute and and and dispute and

2491
01:28:38,870 --> 01:28:37,440
and

2492
01:28:40,390 --> 01:28:38,880
um

2493
01:28:42,229 --> 01:28:40,400
avow no

2494
01:28:43,590 --> 01:28:42,239
to the concept that life can be reduced

2495
01:28:47,110 --> 01:28:43,600
to a bit

2496
01:28:50,070 --> 01:28:47,120
but we if we start by saying that this

2497
01:28:52,470 --> 01:28:50,080
exercise is an exercise in futility

2498
01:28:54,390 --> 01:28:52,480
that instead we want to come up with um

2499
01:28:56,870 --> 01:28:54,400
not a definition that's reducible to a

2500
01:28:59,189 --> 01:28:56,880
bit you are or you are not but rather

2501
01:29:01,030 --> 01:28:59,199
look at this much more nuanced structure

2502
01:29:02,470 --> 01:29:01,040
it might lead us in much more fruitful

2503
01:29:04,550 --> 01:29:02,480
research directions it might be a much

2504
01:29:05,990 --> 01:29:04,560
more useful definition

2505
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:06,000
in the sense of that mathematics

2506
01:29:09,990 --> 01:29:07,840
professor you're you are describing

2507
01:29:11,750 --> 01:29:10,000
before

2508
01:29:13,110 --> 01:29:11,760
now if you can answer this one quickly

2509
01:29:15,110 --> 01:29:13,120
because this isn't a site about what you

2510
01:29:17,350 --> 01:29:15,120
said you mentioned that

2511
01:29:19,189 --> 01:29:17,360
it may not be a bit it could be a vector

2512
01:29:21,270 --> 01:29:19,199
now i see how it could not be a bit it

2513
01:29:23,990 --> 01:29:21,280
could be a real number but i don't see

2514
01:29:26,229 --> 01:29:24,000
how is it that this dissimilarity

2515
01:29:28,709 --> 01:29:26,239
measure could be a vector like r2 r3 et

2516
01:29:30,950 --> 01:29:28,719
cetera ah so here's what i can do

2517
01:29:32,390 --> 01:29:30,960
i take that microscope this is an

2518
01:29:34,950 --> 01:29:32,400
exercise that we've actually did on

2519
01:29:36,709 --> 01:29:34,960
various some image data sets for example

2520
01:29:39,990 --> 01:29:36,719
and we applied it to things like the

2521
01:29:44,070 --> 01:29:40,000
logistic dynamics and so on and so forth

2522
01:29:46,709 --> 01:29:44,080
um take that microscope that's um uh

2523
01:29:48,149 --> 01:29:46,719
getting distributions of of the visual

2524
01:29:50,470 --> 01:29:48,159
images of the patterns at different

2525
01:29:53,110 --> 01:29:50,480
scales

2526
01:29:55,030 --> 01:29:53,120
these are now going to be distributions

2527
01:29:58,390 --> 01:29:55,040
over the pixel pattern within the

2528
01:30:01,669 --> 01:29:58,400
microscope's field of view

2529
01:30:03,189 --> 01:30:01,679
now i can there's many measures from uh

2530
01:30:05,189 --> 01:30:03,199
machine learning probability theory

2531
01:30:07,910 --> 01:30:05,199
information theory for saying how

2532
01:30:10,870 --> 01:30:07,920
different two distributions are

2533
01:30:13,750 --> 01:30:10,880
so this way i can say for any one of the

2534
01:30:15,270 --> 01:30:13,760
following say 10 scales

2535
01:30:18,790 --> 01:30:15,280
how different

2536
01:30:21,669 --> 01:30:18,800
is the distribution over images at those

2537
01:30:23,750 --> 01:30:21,679
two scales so i'm comparing scales

2538
01:30:25,189 --> 01:30:23,760
magnification two times a modification

2539
01:30:27,430 --> 01:30:25,199
seven times

2540
01:30:30,229 --> 01:30:27,440
those scales have associated

2541
01:30:31,590 --> 01:30:30,239
distributions over images

2542
01:30:33,669 --> 01:30:31,600
i look at how different those

2543
01:30:35,990 --> 01:30:33,679
distributions over images are the scale

2544
01:30:37,990 --> 01:30:36,000
two times and seven times that gives me

2545
01:30:40,550 --> 01:30:38,000
a real number

2546
01:30:41,990 --> 01:30:40,560
i then look at it for another pair of

2547
01:30:43,750 --> 01:30:42,000
magnifications that gives me another

2548
01:30:45,590 --> 01:30:43,760
real number

2549
01:30:48,390 --> 01:30:45,600
so in this so in essence what you were

2550
01:30:51,830 --> 01:30:48,400
seeing that this pat this set of

2551
01:30:53,669 --> 01:30:51,840
of differences between distributions

2552
01:30:55,669 --> 01:30:53,679
at the different scales

2553
01:30:58,149 --> 01:30:55,679
can be wound up into one actually it's a

2554
01:30:59,430 --> 01:30:58,159
matrix because you're putting in the two

2555
01:31:01,270 --> 01:30:59,440
scales

2556
01:31:02,709 --> 01:31:01,280
that i'm comparing into these elements

2557
01:31:05,030 --> 01:31:02,719
of these matrix so for if you give me

2558
01:31:07,189 --> 01:31:05,040
two scales i'll give you a real number

2559
01:31:10,790 --> 01:31:07,199
it's actually more rich than a vector is

2560
01:31:13,110 --> 01:31:10,800
a full matrix a symmetric matrix

2561
01:31:15,189 --> 01:31:13,120
um yeah uh yes this particular case is

2562
01:31:16,390 --> 01:31:15,199
symmetric exactly so okay so now this

2563
01:31:17,830 --> 01:31:16,400
question comes from

2564
01:31:19,350 --> 01:31:17,840
kevin knuth and i know you got to go

2565
01:31:20,870 --> 01:31:19,360
don't worry i got to go to

2566
01:31:24,550 --> 01:31:20,880
kevin knuth

2567
01:31:25,910 --> 01:31:24,560
so he wants to know what is life it's a

2568
01:31:27,910 --> 01:31:25,920
question that people have entertained

2569
01:31:29,590 --> 01:31:27,920
for a long time without obvious answers

2570
01:31:31,990 --> 01:31:29,600
your thoughts on observers i sent them

2571
01:31:33,910 --> 01:31:32,000
your video on observers seem to be

2572
01:31:36,070 --> 01:31:33,920
relevant i have always thought of living

2573
01:31:37,510 --> 01:31:36,080
things as systems that use information

2574
01:31:39,830 --> 01:31:37,520
to create some kind of model of the

2575
01:31:41,350 --> 01:31:39,840
world around them in order to locate and

2576
01:31:43,110 --> 01:31:41,360
take advantage of potential energy

2577
01:31:45,030 --> 01:31:43,120
gradients which are then used to keep

2578
01:31:46,709 --> 01:31:45,040
them away from equilibrium and i can

2579
01:31:48,229 --> 01:31:46,719
give some examples and so on i would

2580
01:31:49,990 --> 01:31:48,239
agree that a hurricane is not alive a

2581
01:31:52,149 --> 01:31:50,000
hurricane's a heat engine that he's

2582
01:31:53,990 --> 01:31:52,159
referencing your talk however it's not

2583
01:31:55,830 --> 01:31:54,000
alive because it doesn't use the

2584
01:31:57,830 --> 01:31:55,840
information about its surrounding to

2585
01:31:59,110 --> 01:31:57,840
model these energy gradients the models

2586
01:32:01,350 --> 01:31:59,120
living things can employ are quite

2587
01:32:02,950 --> 01:32:01,360
diverse for humans these are our mental

2588
01:32:04,950 --> 01:32:02,960
models et cetera et cetera some bacteria

2589
01:32:06,709 --> 01:32:04,960
etc so these are my thoughts about life

2590
01:32:08,070 --> 01:32:06,719
i really need to write them down maybe

2591
01:32:09,350 --> 01:32:08,080
david would be interested in working

2592
01:32:11,750 --> 01:32:09,360
with me on this

2593
01:32:13,990 --> 01:32:11,760
okay so this these are kevin knuth's

2594
01:32:15,590 --> 01:32:14,000
thoughts i'm sure you can pull a

2595
01:32:17,510 --> 01:32:15,600
question out from that or just comment

2596
01:32:18,470 --> 01:32:17,520
on it as a whole

2597
01:32:20,390 --> 01:32:18,480
um

2598
01:32:21,830 --> 01:32:20,400
yes so

2599
01:32:23,830 --> 01:32:21,840
um what kevin

2600
01:32:25,830 --> 01:32:23,840
what he's talking about here first of

2601
01:32:27,270 --> 01:32:25,840
all um hi kevin and yes i think we could

2602
01:32:28,950 --> 01:32:27,280
have some very interesting discussions

2603
01:32:31,910 --> 01:32:28,960
about here um

2604
01:32:33,110 --> 01:32:31,920
so as i mentioned before and um okay so

2605
01:32:34,870 --> 01:32:33,120
backing it up

2606
01:32:36,470 --> 01:32:34,880
kevin is talking about presentation i

2607
01:32:38,629 --> 01:32:36,480
made that's where there was observers

2608
01:32:41,830 --> 01:32:38,639
and hurricanes and so on

2609
01:32:44,390 --> 01:32:41,840
um the observers are what i was there

2610
01:32:47,430 --> 01:32:44,400
i'm using as a term to describe

2611
01:32:50,709 --> 01:32:47,440
these non-equilibrium steady states

2612
01:32:52,550 --> 01:32:50,719
that if you were to um basically in a

2613
01:32:55,590 --> 01:32:52,560
judah pearl sense intervene of the

2614
01:32:57,270 --> 01:32:55,600
information flow from the outside world

2615
01:32:58,950 --> 01:32:57,280
into these systems

2616
01:33:00,550 --> 01:32:58,960
they would no longer be at

2617
01:33:03,030 --> 01:33:00,560
non-equilibrium they would actually

2618
01:33:05,510 --> 01:33:03,040
collapse to being at equilibrium

2619
01:33:07,270 --> 01:33:05,520
and we were calling that in this is what

2620
01:33:08,709 --> 01:33:07,280
we were calling an observer

2621
01:33:10,950 --> 01:33:08,719
this was um

2622
01:33:12,950 --> 01:33:10,960
what they were called in this talk of

2623
01:33:15,350 --> 01:33:12,960
mine that kevin saw

2624
01:33:17,590 --> 01:33:15,360
and um the and we were

2625
01:33:19,189 --> 01:33:17,600
making the definitions be

2626
01:33:21,270 --> 01:33:19,199
um we were careful

2627
01:33:23,030 --> 01:33:21,280
so that we would not i mean the words

2628
01:33:24,550 --> 01:33:23,040
observer and alive are being just

2629
01:33:26,390 --> 01:33:24,560
mangled around here

2630
01:33:27,750 --> 01:33:26,400
but um that we were trying to make it so

2631
01:33:30,070 --> 01:33:27,760
that a hurricane is not in a certain

2632
01:33:33,590 --> 01:33:30,080
sense observing its environment

2633
01:33:34,470 --> 01:33:33,600
um whereas say a paramecium going up a

2634
01:33:40,629 --> 01:33:34,480
uh

2635
01:33:42,470 --> 01:33:40,639
environment and is alive

2636
01:33:45,030 --> 01:33:42,480
so um

2637
01:33:46,149 --> 01:33:45,040
let's see so

2638
01:33:49,910 --> 01:33:46,159
well

2639
01:33:52,709 --> 01:33:49,920
i am my collaborator artemis kochinski

2640
01:33:55,669 --> 01:33:52,719
we're going after in that paper

2641
01:33:57,350 --> 01:33:55,679
where we define semantic information and

2642
01:34:00,390 --> 01:33:57,360
observation

2643
01:34:02,229 --> 01:34:00,400
and so on as a non-equilibrium study is

2644
01:34:03,430 --> 01:34:02,239
a system that's in a non-equilibrium

2645
01:34:05,430 --> 01:34:03,440
steady state

2646
01:34:07,030 --> 01:34:05,440
such that if you intervened on the

2647
01:34:08,070 --> 01:34:07,040
information it gets from the outside

2648
01:34:10,310 --> 01:34:08,080
world

2649
01:34:12,950 --> 01:34:10,320
it would collapse to equilibrium

2650
01:34:15,270 --> 01:34:12,960
equilibrium being a synonym for depth

2651
01:34:18,629 --> 01:34:15,280
we were saying that those are systems

2652
01:34:20,629 --> 01:34:18,639
that are either observers or living or

2653
01:34:22,550 --> 01:34:20,639
just generally of interest without using

2654
01:34:25,910 --> 01:34:22,560
loaded terminology

2655
01:34:28,070 --> 01:34:25,920
um that is all the what

2656
01:34:30,550 --> 01:34:28,080
kevin is talking about models that the

2657
01:34:34,229 --> 01:34:30,560
system has internally

2658
01:34:35,270 --> 01:34:34,239
that is that basically play a middle

2659
01:34:37,910 --> 01:34:35,280
step

2660
01:34:41,109 --> 01:34:37,920
in the map from the information entering

2661
01:34:44,550 --> 01:34:41,119
from the outside to the actions that the

2662
01:34:46,390 --> 01:34:44,560
um entity does back on the outside

2663
01:34:50,070 --> 01:34:46,400
that a lot that end up allowing the

2664
01:34:52,390 --> 01:34:50,080
entity to be away from equilibrium

2665
01:34:53,990 --> 01:34:52,400
the model is the way that it does that

2666
01:34:56,709 --> 01:34:54,000
it's a way of interpreting what's going

2667
01:34:58,310 --> 01:34:56,719
on in the entity in between these steps

2668
01:35:01,189 --> 01:34:58,320
of getting information from the outside

2669
01:35:02,550 --> 01:35:01,199
and then acting back on the outside

2670
01:35:04,950 --> 01:35:02,560
um

2671
01:35:07,510 --> 01:35:04,960
what we were

2672
01:35:09,830 --> 01:35:07,520
analyzing in our work

2673
01:35:11,669 --> 01:35:09,840
deleted that step we were not trying to

2674
01:35:13,350 --> 01:35:11,679
say anything about internal models we

2675
01:35:14,390 --> 01:35:13,360
were simply saying the end result is

2676
01:35:17,270 --> 01:35:14,400
that if you

2677
01:35:18,870 --> 01:35:17,280
interrupt the information flow from the

2678
01:35:21,430 --> 01:35:18,880
outside

2679
01:35:23,030 --> 01:35:21,440
we were saying nothing about the reasons

2680
01:35:24,070 --> 01:35:23,040
whether it go through models or some

2681
01:35:27,030 --> 01:35:24,080
other

2682
01:35:29,910 --> 01:35:27,040
phenomena but the ultimate effect was

2683
01:35:32,229 --> 01:35:29,920
that you collapsed back to equilibrium

2684
01:35:33,510 --> 01:35:32,239
so it was saying that if you if i sunder

2685
01:35:34,790 --> 01:35:33,520
the information you're going from the

2686
01:35:36,950 --> 01:35:34,800
outside you're getting right now

2687
01:35:39,270 --> 01:35:36,960
information from the outside about where

2688
01:35:42,070 --> 01:35:39,280
a cheeseburger is on a table

2689
01:35:44,229 --> 01:35:42,080
if i stop that information flow

2690
01:35:45,510 --> 01:35:44,239
eventually you die you fall back to

2691
01:35:47,109 --> 01:35:45,520
equilibrium

2692
01:35:48,950 --> 01:35:47,119
so that's the so what you are doing is

2693
01:35:50,870 --> 01:35:48,960
you are right now in a non-equilibrium

2694
01:35:52,709 --> 01:35:50,880
steady state because you're getting

2695
01:35:54,870 --> 01:35:52,719
information from the outside world and

2696
01:35:57,669 --> 01:35:54,880
what i and what we were analyzing there

2697
01:35:59,350 --> 01:35:57,679
is systems where if you were to chop

2698
01:36:02,070 --> 01:35:59,360
that information flow from the outside

2699
01:36:03,750 --> 01:36:02,080
world the result is that they actually

2700
01:36:05,750 --> 01:36:03,760
collapse back down into being

2701
01:36:08,709 --> 01:36:05,760
equilibrium they die

2702
01:36:10,790 --> 01:36:08,719
the means by which that happens

2703
01:36:12,950 --> 01:36:10,800
in your particular case or well if you

2704
01:36:15,350 --> 01:36:12,960
had that information about where the

2705
01:36:17,910 --> 01:36:15,360
cheeseburger is you could then reach out

2706
01:36:20,070 --> 01:36:17,920
your hand based upon an internal model

2707
01:36:22,149 --> 01:36:20,080
of the outside world grab that

2708
01:36:23,510 --> 01:36:22,159
cheeseburger bring it to your mouth

2709
01:36:25,189 --> 01:36:23,520
digest it

2710
01:36:27,189 --> 01:36:25,199
get a whole bunch of glucose which is

2711
01:36:28,790 --> 01:36:27,199
what you then use to stay out of

2712
01:36:30,550 --> 01:36:28,800
equilibrium

2713
01:36:33,030 --> 01:36:30,560
so that's everything that happened in

2714
01:36:35,430 --> 01:36:33,040
between you're getting the information

2715
01:36:37,750 --> 01:36:35,440
and you're staying out of equilibrium

2716
01:36:40,149 --> 01:36:37,760
in other processes like the paramecium

2717
01:36:41,590 --> 01:36:40,159
it's getting information about the

2718
01:36:42,790 --> 01:36:41,600
gradient of a chemical in its

2719
01:36:44,870 --> 01:36:42,800
environment

2720
01:36:46,870 --> 01:36:44,880
it is then using that information one

2721
01:36:49,430 --> 01:36:46,880
could maybe say an implicit genetic

2722
01:36:51,350 --> 01:36:49,440
model that's what kevin is saying but

2723
01:36:52,950 --> 01:36:51,360
whatever the end result is that it uses

2724
01:36:54,950 --> 01:36:52,960
that to determine

2725
01:36:57,750 --> 01:36:54,960
how it should reorient itself before it

2726
01:37:00,950 --> 01:36:57,760
uses this flagella to actually move

2727
01:37:02,390 --> 01:37:00,960
so that it can actually then ingest

2728
01:37:04,709 --> 01:37:02,400
these particular chemicals and that's

2729
01:37:06,950 --> 01:37:04,719
how it stays out of equilibrium

2730
01:37:09,189 --> 01:37:06,960
so in my work with artemy kalczynski all

2731
01:37:12,149 --> 01:37:09,199
that we did was looked at the um

2732
01:37:13,910 --> 01:37:12,159
the beginning point and the end point

2733
01:37:16,870 --> 01:37:13,920
notice that you need the information

2734
01:37:18,629 --> 01:37:16,880
coming in to stay out of equilibrium

2735
01:37:21,270 --> 01:37:18,639
those are interesting systems we said

2736
01:37:23,830 --> 01:37:21,280
from a physics point of view

2737
01:37:26,070 --> 01:37:23,840
kevin is now discussing is a special

2738
01:37:28,470 --> 01:37:26,080
case of such systems

2739
01:37:30,550 --> 01:37:28,480
which are physics systems that capture

2740
01:37:33,830 --> 01:37:30,560
at least a large part of what is

2741
01:37:35,270 --> 01:37:33,840
what one might want to say is a living

2742
01:37:37,189 --> 01:37:35,280
system they're not just interesting

2743
01:37:40,390 --> 01:37:37,199
these things they do capture a large

2744
01:37:42,229 --> 01:37:40,400
part of what it means to be alive

2745
01:37:44,629 --> 01:37:42,239
so that's a very long-winded answer to

2746
01:37:47,030 --> 01:37:44,639
question to kevin's question kevin yes

2747
01:37:49,510 --> 01:37:47,040
if you do want to in particular the

2748
01:37:51,750 --> 01:37:49,520
directed information flow of people like

2749
01:37:53,830 --> 01:37:51,760
daniel palani and nihai

2750
01:37:55,830 --> 01:37:53,840
i think could be a very very interesting

2751
01:37:57,109 --> 01:37:55,840
fruitful way to try to build more

2752
01:37:59,590 --> 01:37:57,119
structure

2753
01:38:01,669 --> 01:37:59,600
into these particular systems

2754
01:38:03,270 --> 01:38:01,679
a halfway point to building full-on

2755
01:38:06,229 --> 01:38:03,280
internal models

2756
01:38:07,669 --> 01:38:06,239
so yeah kevin drop me a line

2757
01:38:09,590 --> 01:38:07,679
now the last question you can answer

2758
01:38:13,189 --> 01:38:09,600
hopefully fairly quickly it's even

2759
01:38:14,709 --> 01:38:13,199
though it's long it's one sentence

2760
01:38:16,470 --> 01:38:14,719
it's actually just one sentence so i

2761
01:38:18,870 --> 01:38:16,480
love this one comes from professor

2762
01:38:20,550 --> 01:38:18,880
edward lee of berkeley i love david how

2763
01:38:21,830 --> 01:38:20,560
your work has complicated the faith many

2764
01:38:23,830 --> 01:38:21,840
scientists hold in an ultimately

2765
01:38:25,830 --> 01:38:23,840
deterministic world i was wondering

2766
01:38:27,669 --> 01:38:25,840
whether you've looked at john norton so

2767
01:38:29,430 --> 01:38:27,679
we talked about that

2768
01:38:31,109 --> 01:38:29,440
so we actually did talk about that in

2769
01:38:33,189 --> 01:38:31,119
particular why is this example

2770
01:38:36,950 --> 01:38:33,199
controversial why are so many people

2771
01:38:39,270 --> 01:38:36,960
offended by the idea of uncaused action

2772
01:38:42,229 --> 01:38:39,280
yeah i've also encountered um uh

2773
01:38:44,629 --> 01:38:42,239
professor lee's work and i find also

2774
01:38:47,189 --> 01:38:44,639
mutual admiration here um that i am

2775
01:38:49,109 --> 01:38:47,199
impressed with a lot of his work um this

2776
01:38:50,870 --> 01:38:49,119
is actually a subtle thing i'm very

2777
01:38:52,950 --> 01:38:50,880
careful in my

2778
01:38:55,510 --> 01:38:52,960
stuff on inference devices

2779
01:38:57,510 --> 01:38:55,520
there is no laws discussed mentioned

2780
01:38:59,790 --> 01:38:57,520
anyway there's no rules

2781
01:39:02,550 --> 01:38:59,800
there's no

2782
01:39:04,629 --> 01:39:02,560
mathematicalization of the patterns in

2783
01:39:07,669 --> 01:39:04,639
the underlying reality

2784
01:39:14,070 --> 01:39:09,750
world lines in a set

2785
01:39:16,390 --> 01:39:14,080
and in an observer is one particular um

2786
01:39:19,030 --> 01:39:16,400
subset of those world lines something

2787
01:39:21,109 --> 01:39:19,040
it's observing is another subset

2788
01:39:23,350 --> 01:39:21,119
what it means to observe

2789
01:39:25,189 --> 01:39:23,360
has to do with the relationship between

2790
01:39:27,270 --> 01:39:25,199
those two subsets

2791
01:39:29,750 --> 01:39:27,280
what it would mean to make predictions

2792
01:39:32,070 --> 01:39:29,760
would then be another subset

2793
01:39:34,950 --> 01:39:32,080
and basically by means of these subsets

2794
01:39:36,790 --> 01:39:34,960
and their overlaps that this topology

2795
01:39:38,709 --> 01:39:36,800
you would build up the structure of a

2796
01:39:41,510 --> 01:39:38,719
scientist using theories to make

2797
01:39:43,350 --> 01:39:41,520
predictions about what might occur in

2798
01:39:46,550 --> 01:39:43,360
the world and those theories are going

2799
01:39:48,390 --> 01:39:46,560
to be in the form of rules and laws

2800
01:39:51,750 --> 01:39:48,400
and so for example max tegmark's

2801
01:39:53,910 --> 01:39:51,760
multiverse work i highly plug his

2802
01:39:56,629 --> 01:39:53,920
foundations of physics paper in the

2803
01:39:59,510 --> 01:39:56,639
earlier animals of physics um papers

2804
01:40:02,470 --> 01:39:59,520
on the multiverse don't bother with pop

2805
01:40:03,830 --> 01:40:02,480
books go to go for the real meat um

2806
01:40:05,990 --> 01:40:03,840
in that work

2807
01:40:08,070 --> 01:40:06,000
he ultimately

2808
01:40:10,229 --> 01:40:08,080
reduces the notion of physical reality

2809
01:40:11,830 --> 01:40:10,239
to a set of laws to a set of

2810
01:40:13,189 --> 01:40:11,840
mathematical

2811
01:40:14,790 --> 01:40:13,199
rules

2812
01:40:17,510 --> 01:40:14,800
and the presumption that all physical

2813
01:40:18,790 --> 01:40:17,520
reality is is just a set of rules which

2814
01:40:24,550 --> 01:40:18,800
is

2815
01:40:25,910 --> 01:40:24,560
because it seems to

2816
01:40:27,910 --> 01:40:25,920
wreak havoc with the notion that

2817
01:40:29,430 --> 01:40:27,920
physical reality can be reduced to a set

2818
01:40:30,870 --> 01:40:29,440
of rules

2819
01:40:32,310 --> 01:40:30,880
that's i think ultimately from a

2820
01:40:34,229 --> 01:40:32,320
sociological point of view why people

2821
01:40:36,149 --> 01:40:34,239
are upset about that

2822
01:40:37,430 --> 01:40:36,159
i'm very careful in my work that rules

2823
01:40:40,390 --> 01:40:37,440
don't appear

2824
01:40:42,790 --> 01:40:40,400
there's just subsets there's a topology

2825
01:40:45,590 --> 01:40:42,800
there might be patterns those patterns

2826
01:40:47,189 --> 01:40:45,600
can be violated at any point in time

2827
01:40:49,030 --> 01:40:47,199
no free lunch

2828
01:40:50,390 --> 01:40:49,040
um newton's laws even if they are there

2829
01:40:52,790 --> 01:40:50,400
they might just suddenly disappear

2830
01:40:55,510 --> 01:40:52,800
tomorrow before the um

2831
01:40:57,350 --> 01:40:55,520
before uh the ball of john norton has

2832
01:40:59,030 --> 01:40:57,360
even had a chance to try to think about

2833
01:41:00,229 --> 01:40:59,040
falling off of the dome

2834
01:41:04,629 --> 01:41:00,239
um

2835
01:41:06,070 --> 01:41:04,639
but many people instead want to

2836
01:41:08,950 --> 01:41:06,080
implicitly

2837
01:41:10,149 --> 01:41:08,960
they think of a mathematical universe as

2838
01:41:11,510 --> 01:41:10,159
being

2839
01:41:13,109 --> 01:41:11,520
a set of things like differential

2840
01:41:14,790 --> 01:41:13,119
equations

2841
01:41:16,550 --> 01:41:14,800
rules laws

2842
01:41:19,270 --> 01:41:16,560
and i just think of it instead as being

2843
01:41:20,470 --> 01:41:19,280
a set and there can be a topology on

2844
01:41:22,709 --> 01:41:20,480
that set

2845
01:41:24,470 --> 01:41:22,719
and the topology might have patterns

2846
01:41:26,470 --> 01:41:24,480
which you might be able to embody as

2847
01:41:28,310 --> 01:41:26,480
such rules and laws

2848
01:41:30,870 --> 01:41:28,320
or it might not

2849
01:41:33,510 --> 01:41:30,880
it all just depends on the topology and

2850
01:41:36,790 --> 01:41:33,520
different topologies are going to

2851
01:41:38,950 --> 01:41:36,800
either be rule like or not rule-like

2852
01:41:40,550 --> 01:41:38,960
law-like or not law-like

2853
01:41:41,990 --> 01:41:40,560
and it's not even the case that one is

2854
01:41:44,229 --> 01:41:42,000
real and one is not real they're just

2855
01:41:46,149 --> 01:41:44,239
all different realities

2856
01:41:47,430 --> 01:41:46,159
it's legitimate to one as legitimate as

2857
01:41:49,669 --> 01:41:47,440
one another there's no privileged

2858
01:41:51,750 --> 01:41:49,679
reality

2859
01:41:53,189 --> 01:41:51,760
i i suspect that

2860
01:41:55,750 --> 01:41:53,199
all of these kinds of answers i'm giving

2861
01:41:57,669 --> 01:41:55,760
you these questions

2862
01:41:58,870 --> 01:41:57,679
are not necessarily fully fruitful it's

2863
01:42:02,070 --> 01:41:58,880
kind of

2864
01:42:04,470 --> 01:42:02,080
as an aside as an interviewee to give a

2865
01:42:07,030 --> 01:42:04,480
answer to a question in a stand-alone

2866
01:42:08,870 --> 01:42:07,040
manner rather than in a dialogue

2867
01:42:10,550 --> 01:42:08,880
where i can see the response of the

2868
01:42:12,229 --> 01:42:10,560
questioner and therefore refine my

2869
01:42:14,310 --> 01:42:12,239
answer

2870
01:42:16,229 --> 01:42:14,320
accordingly it's a kind of a strange

2871
01:42:18,470 --> 01:42:16,239
thing because it's almost like open loop

2872
01:42:21,030 --> 01:42:18,480
rather than closed loop control

2873
01:42:22,709 --> 01:42:21,040
um but in any case um i hope that

2874
01:42:26,149 --> 01:42:22,719
answers a little bit um a professor

2875
01:42:29,830 --> 01:42:27,990
professor thank you so much for spending

2876
01:42:31,669 --> 01:42:29,840
so much time with me and the audience

2877
01:42:34,629 --> 01:42:31,679
i'm sure thanks you too

2878
01:42:36,310 --> 01:42:34,639
okay well thanks very much sorry if i

2879
01:42:39,109 --> 01:42:36,320
was too much open loop control i think i

2880
01:42:41,270 --> 01:42:39,119
was a little bit logarettic today but

2881
01:42:43,669 --> 01:42:41,280
so uh thank you very very much

2882
01:42:46,310 --> 01:42:43,679
and if you could give me the information

2883
01:42:48,790 --> 01:42:46,320
about um the forum for this so i can

2884
01:42:51,030 --> 01:42:48,800
then forward that to the sfi people and

2885
01:42:53,750 --> 01:42:51,040
kevin contact me

2886
01:42:56,229 --> 01:42:53,760
great okay okay goodbye professor thank

2887
01:42:58,149 --> 01:42:56,239
you okay truly it was a blast like i'm

2888
01:42:59,669 --> 01:42:58,159
great to be speaking to someone who also

2889
01:43:01,750 --> 01:42:59,679
is philosophically inclined even though

2890
01:43:03,430 --> 01:43:01,760
you had your excoriations on philosophy

2891
01:43:05,750 --> 01:43:03,440
you still had your philosophy of

2892
01:43:08,470 --> 01:43:05,760
philosophy

2893
01:43:10,070 --> 01:43:08,480
yeah um in many ways yes

2894
01:43:13,830 --> 01:43:10,080
i think philosophy is almost by

2895
01:43:15,910 --> 01:43:13,840
definition the most important

2896
01:43:18,229 --> 01:43:15,920
intellectual endeavor there is but and

2897
01:43:20,310 --> 01:43:18,239
this is being a real snide

2898
01:43:23,030 --> 01:43:20,320
i don't i think it's really unfortunate

2899
01:43:24,550 --> 01:43:23,040
people that actually engage in it

2900
01:43:28,149 --> 01:43:24,560
have not been trained

2901
01:43:32,149 --> 01:43:28,159
properly and that's most of philosophers

2902
01:43:34,470 --> 01:43:32,159
um it's unfortunately exceptions um you

2903
01:43:36,310 --> 01:43:34,480
know dan dan i think

2904
01:43:38,070 --> 01:43:36,320
the training can either be explicitly or

2905
01:43:39,430 --> 01:43:38,080
implicitly and i think dan is an example

2906
01:43:41,669 --> 01:43:39,440
of somebody who's

2907
01:43:43,990 --> 01:43:41,679
quote trained well to be really speaking

2908
01:43:45,510 --> 01:43:44,000
in snotty asinine terms

2909
01:43:48,229 --> 01:43:45,520
um but yeah i think it's the most

2910
01:43:51,510 --> 01:43:48,239
important um subject there is

2911
01:43:55,590 --> 01:43:53,830
all right take care sir okay

2912
01:43:56,870 --> 01:43:55,600
and we'll talk soon bye bye okay thank

2913
01:43:58,870 --> 01:43:56,880
you

2914
01:44:00,709 --> 01:43:58,880
there were two extra questions from sam

2915
01:44:03,030 --> 01:44:00,719
thompson and chris langan that we didn't

2916
01:44:05,030 --> 01:44:03,040
have a chance to address on video due to

2917
01:44:06,709 --> 01:44:05,040
limited time but david was kind enough

2918
01:44:08,629 --> 01:44:06,719
to answer over email

2919
01:44:10,629 --> 01:44:08,639
sam thompson asks do you see any

2920
01:44:12,310 --> 01:44:10,639
socio-political implications in your

2921
01:44:14,870 --> 01:44:12,320
work on the formal limitations of

2922
01:44:17,189 --> 01:44:14,880
inference devices david walpart says

2923
01:44:19,669 --> 01:44:17,199
interesting question one could consider

2924
01:44:22,070 --> 01:44:19,679
for example the laplace's demon theorem

2925
01:44:23,590 --> 01:44:22,080
or the monotheism theorem as concerning

2926
01:44:25,350 --> 01:44:23,600
limitations of what a government is

2927
01:44:27,270 --> 01:44:25,360
capable of but those theorems are based

2928
01:44:29,270 --> 01:44:27,280
on worst case scenarios they show that

2929
01:44:31,270 --> 01:44:29,280
there is some question-answer pair that

2930
01:44:33,750 --> 01:44:31,280
an inference device gets wrong not that

2931
01:44:35,510 --> 01:44:33,760
it must get wrong a particular such pair

2932
01:44:37,430 --> 01:44:35,520
more interesting and future work would

2933
01:44:39,109 --> 01:44:37,440
be an extension of the inference theorem

2934
01:44:40,870 --> 01:44:39,119
would be an extension of the inference

2935
01:44:43,350 --> 01:44:40,880
device formalism to incorporate

2936
01:44:46,310 --> 01:44:43,360
probabilities and degrees of failure

2937
01:44:48,070 --> 01:44:46,320
then for example we could maybe get

2938
01:44:50,070 --> 01:44:48,080
impossibility results concerning the

2939
01:44:52,149 --> 01:44:50,080
maximal probability that the error of

2940
01:44:54,870 --> 01:44:52,159
the inference device would be less than

2941
01:44:56,550 --> 01:44:54,880
a bound in sociopolitical terms rather

2942
01:44:58,390 --> 01:44:56,560
than a result concerning worst-case

2943
01:45:00,470 --> 01:44:58,400
failures of a government the current

2944
01:45:02,229 --> 01:45:00,480
impossibility theorems we would have a

2945
01:45:04,070 --> 01:45:02,239
result concerning the likelihood that a

2946
01:45:05,030 --> 01:45:04,080
government failure is worse than a given

2947
01:45:07,189 --> 01:45:05,040
amount

2948
01:45:09,189 --> 01:45:07,199
now on to the question from chris langan

2949
01:45:11,189 --> 01:45:09,199
david you base your definition of

2950
01:45:13,189 --> 01:45:11,199
observer on principles of physical

2951
01:45:15,669 --> 01:45:13,199
causation including thermodynamics and

2952
01:45:18,149 --> 01:45:15,679
statistical mechanics dot david

2953
01:45:20,070 --> 01:45:18,159
interjects i've used the term observer

2954
01:45:21,830 --> 01:45:20,080
in different ways depending on whether

2955
01:45:23,990 --> 01:45:21,840
i'm talking about inference devices or

2956
01:45:26,229 --> 01:45:24,000
the semantics of information formalism

2957
01:45:27,990 --> 01:45:26,239
with artemy or noisy deductive reasoning

2958
01:45:30,229 --> 01:45:28,000
which meaning do they have in mind so

2959
01:45:32,709 --> 01:45:30,239
then chris langen finishes the question

2960
01:45:34,950 --> 01:45:32,719
do you subscribe to physicalism the idea

2961
01:45:36,950 --> 01:45:34,960
that reality is basically physical in

2962
01:45:38,550 --> 01:45:36,960
nature or do you think that a broader

2963
01:45:40,870 --> 01:45:38,560
more sophisticated understanding of

2964
01:45:42,790 --> 01:45:40,880
causality one that exceeds the classical

2965
01:45:44,390 --> 01:45:42,800
concept of physical mechanism and

2966
01:45:46,390 --> 01:45:44,400
quantum theoretic concepts like

2967
01:45:48,229 --> 01:45:46,400
entanglement non-locality and quantum

2968
01:45:51,270 --> 01:45:48,239
wave function collapse will eventually

2969
01:45:53,590 --> 01:45:51,280
be required david answers in short there

2970
01:45:55,590 --> 01:45:53,600
is right now absolutely zero data slash

2971
01:45:57,830 --> 01:45:55,600
evidence to believe that will

2972
01:46:02,149 --> 01:45:57,840
quote-unquote eventually be required so

2973
01:46:05,830 --> 01:46:04,070
the podcast is now finished if you'd

2974
01:46:08,950 --> 01:46:05,840
like to support conversations like this

2975
01:46:13,109 --> 01:46:08,960
then do consider going to patreon.com

2976
01:46:15,669 --> 01:46:13,119
c-u-r-t j-a-i-m-u-n

2977
01:46:17,510 --> 01:46:15,679
that is kurt jaimungle it's support from

2978
01:46:19,350 --> 01:46:17,520
the patrons and from the sponsors that